Royal Marine Light Infantry

[HLP]

Hello

I am researching my grandfather, Henry Davis who died long before I was born.  I have no living older relatives any more so it's me and Google!

 

He was in the RMLI 1881 to 1903.  I have these two photos of him and would like to know what information the uniform insignia tells me.  All I have surmised from Google is the inverted sleeve chevrons may mean years of service.  I found discharge information which simply told me he'd done his time.  My father's notes suggest that Henry served abroad at some point, but there was no detail at all.  He was retired long before my father was born.  The census of 1891 says he was a butcher with the stone frigate HMS Vernon.  1901 Census says simply Private RMLI.  I cannot find any trace of him in the 1881 census.

[Pat Atkins]

Hello and welcome to the forum. Can't help you, but there are many members here to whom this will be meat and drink. Good luck with the research.

 

Cheers, Pat

[FROGSMILE]

The uppermost photo shows the full dress tunic worn before 1902, with a trefoil cuff decoration in white piping.  The inverted stripes on his left cuff are good conduct badges showing that he is a long serving marine without disciplinary blemishes.  Above his GCBs are crossed rifles that were awarded to ‘marksmen’ and which earned extra pay.  The medal he wears is probably I think the Naval Reserve long service and good conduct medal that had a plain dark blue ribbon.

 

 In the second photo he appears as a long service veteran around the time of WW1 and probably recalled from the Royal Marines Reserve, or perhaps on an extended service engagement.  He wears the blue serge working frock that had been worn by the RMLI (and RMA) as their principal working garment when on board ship and when mounting shore parties to support land forces.  It was a simple, loose fitting garment that at that time had a single breast pocket and two skirt pockets.  His headdress is the so-called ‘Brodrick’ cap (named after the Secretary of State for War) that was introduced in 1902 for both, Army and RMA/RMLI, but whilst quickly replaced in the Army it was retained by the Marines until 1923.

 

 

Edited 26 May , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Sepoy]

Welcome to the forum.
Beaten to it by Frogsmile!
I believe that the 4 Good Conduct badges indicate at least 18 years service. He is wearing his blue frock in the second photograph.
Sepoy

 

[Pat Atkins]

I don't like to say, I told you so... 

[horatio2]

Do you have his records from Kew? If not, his very full ADM 159 ledger record is here (It carries over onto three subsequent pages -

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D7742037

This record confirms he was qualified Butcher 1st Hand at Aldershot and was serving in HMS VERNON in 1891

 

ADM 157 at Kew has further papers (at present unavailable because of Covid 19). These should have a lot more information if they have not been weeded.  -

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C14524237

 

The RM Medal Roll shows that he was only entitled to claim the Britsh War Medal for his WW1 service, which was entirely ashore in HMS EXCELLENT.

Edited 26 May , 2020 by horatio2

[RNCVR]

He was awarded RN LS medal: 1\1\95.

[Sepoy]

41 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

 The medal he wears is probably I think the Naval Reserve long service and good conduct medal that had a plain dark blue ribbon.

He is wearing the Naval Long Service and Good Conduct Medal which had a dark blue ribbon with white edge stripes,
Sepoy

 

[FROGSMILE]

10 minutes ago, Sepoy said:

He is wearing the Naval Long Service and Good Conduct Medal which had a dark blue ribbon with white edge stripes,
Sepoy

 

I did think that too at first as he seemed to be a long serving regular, but given that his piping on his tunic is white, where are the white edges on his medal?

Edited 26 May , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Sepoy]

5 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

I did think that too at first as he seemed to be a long serving regular, but given that his piping on his tunic is white, where are the white edges on his medal?

Blowing the photograph up you can see the edge stripes on the ribbon. They are certainly not as clear as the piping on the tunic, but bear in mind the differences in material.

[RNCVR]

LS Ribbon could be somewhat soiled from handling.

[FROGSMILE]

8 minutes ago, Sepoy said:

Blowing the photograph up you can see the edge stripes on the ribbon. They are certainly not as clear as the piping on the tunic, but bear in mind the differences in material.

 

I’m not 100% convinced because although I can see something on the right side, there seems to be no indication whatsoever on the left, and even when grubby white would show up clearly, especially if you compare with other ribbons.  The white edges were not especially narrow either (see below).  However, it was mentioned above that the award was made in 1895 and the Naval Volunteer Reserve Medal was not introduced until 1908, so it seems it must be the regulars medal.

 

Edited 26 May , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Sepoy]

1 minute ago, FROGSMILE said:

I’m not 100% convinced because although I can see something on the right side there seems to be no indication whatsoever on the left, and even when grubby white would show up clearly, especially if you compare with other ribbons.  The white edges were not especially narrow either.

The RMLI were awarded the Naval LSGC, and after WW1, the Royal Fleet Reserve LSGC which had a wide blue central stripe with two thin red stripes and then two wide white edge stripes. I have just noticed that RNCVR has even added the date Henry Davis received the Naval LSGC on 1st January, 1895 (see post 7).
Medal ribbons do not always wear well if worn in the rain or handled.
Also I cannot see how a regular Marine with long service would be entitled to a Royal Naval Reserve LSGC which was worn from a green ribbon.
Sepoy

[FROGSMILE]

8 minutes ago, Sepoy said:

The RMLI were awarded the Naval LSGC, and after WW1, the Royal Fleet Reserve LSGC which had a wide blue central stripe with two thin red stripes and then two wide white edge stripes. I have just noticed that RNCVR has even added the date Henry Davis received the Naval LSGC on 1st January, 1895 (see post 7).
Medal ribbons do not always wear well if worn in the rain or handled.
Also I cannot see how a regular Marine with long service would be entitled to a Royal Naval Reserve LSGC which was worn from a green ribbon.
Sepoy

I’m not sure if you posted this before I’d finished writing above, but it seems so.  I have already mentioned the 1895 entry for his regulars medal and conceded that it is most likely that medal.  I’m well aware that ribbons can get grubby having had mine dropped in a pint and needing to replace them. I’m also conscious of the effects of light and shade having mentioned it many times in past threads.  It’s just that on this occasion there’s not even the hint of white, which seemed exceedingly odd when compared with his piping, and to a degree beyond the normal differences between wool and ribbon.  It goes beyond saying that a green ribbon would not have been apparent on a black and white photo.

Edited 26 May , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[HLP]

Wow, thank you so much. I've just followed the link to the war record.  It's odd they have his DOB one year out. The day and month are right, but it was def 1863 and they have 1862..  I don't think it would have been a lie about age, as on joining up in Dec 1881 he'd have been 18yrs and 9 months.

Heather

[FROGSMILE]

8 minutes ago, HLP said:

Wow, thank you so much. I've just followed the link to the war record.  It's odd they have his DOB one year out. The day and month are right, but it was def 1863 and they have 1862..  I don't think it would have been a lie about age, as on joining up in Dec 1881 he'd have been 18yrs and 9 months.

Heather

Do you think that the Royal Navy rating with whom he is photographed in the second image is his son?  Also, can you read the name of the ship on the rating’s cap tally, I cannot quite make it out?

[horatio2]

4 minutes ago, HLP said:

It's odd they have his DOB one year out. The day and month are right, but it was def 1863 and they have 1862.

There is always the possibility of a copying error by the clerk. His age/d,o,b, will be on the attestation form that he signed on enlistment and that should be in his ADM 157 papers. There are numerous reasons why a man would wish people to think he was a year older and they are not necessarily connected to his enlistment.

[RNCVR]

Davis LS medal could have the incorrect ribbon but that is very unlikely. I had posted a more detailed response ear;ier after post 5, just prior to Horatio's post & links to Davis' Service Record files but somehow it got lost in the ether & did not go thru, then I was called away to do something & was only able to past a couple short posts concerning his LS medal.

 

I have had over 200 VR LS medals in my collection & some of those have arrived with very distressed & soiled ribbons, so its possible.

I only have one example in my data base & will show it below.  As can be seen its distressed & edge worn (fraying) thru wear, Now this rating was an RN Bandsman so he wore his medal.  I have had much worse ribbons than this tho.

 

I still feel Davis is wearing a Victorian  RN LS medal.

 

Best to all,

Bryan

[RNCVR]

I had also commented on the RN Rating seated in the 2nd photo.  His cap ribbon appears to read HMS EXCELLENT.  He appears quite young with no insignia that I can make out, so expect he was attending the Gunnery school HMS Excellent for his initial training as a SG (Seaman Gunner).

 

I wonder if he was related to Davis, or perhaps his son?  If that is Davis standing he appears to be much older than in the 1st RPPC.

 

Thoughts?

&  Best....Bryan

[FROGSMILE]

13 minutes ago, RNCVR said:

Davis LS medal could have the incorrect ribbon but that is very unlikely. I had posted a more detailed response ear;ier after post 5, just prior to Horatio's post & links to Davis' Service Record files but somehow it got lost in the ether & did not go thru, then I was called away to do something & was only able to past a couple short posts concerning his LS medal.

 

I have had over 200 VR LS medals in my collection & some of those have arrived with very distressed & soiled ribbons, so its possible.

I only have one example in my data base & will show it below.  As can be seen its distressed & edge worn (fraying) thru wear, Now this rating was an RN Bandsman so he wore his medal.  I have had much worse ribbons than this tho.

 

I still feel Davis is wearing a Victorian  RN LS medal.

 

Best to all,

Bryan

 

 
I don’t see what else it might be given his service record Bryan, but still find it quite strange, because as a butcher he would not that often have needed to wear his medal.  Also the photo should be no later than 1902 given the pre-1902 tunic that he is wearing so the medal would only be around 7-years old.  With those two factors in mind excessive wear on the ribbon seems unlikely and thus the absence of visibly white edges, not withstanding reflection, light and shade,  very odd.

Edited 26 May , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

21 minutes ago, RNCVR said:

I had also commented on the RN Rating seated in the 2nd photo.  His cap ribbon appears to read HMS EXCELLENT.  He appears quite young with no insignia that I can make out, so expect he was attending the Gunnery school HMS Excellent for his initial training as a SG (Seaman Gunner).

 

I wonder if he was related to Davis, or perhaps his son?  If that is Davis standing he appears to be much older than in the 1st RPPC.

 

Thoughts?

&  Best....Bryan

Yes, I commented on Davis appearing to be an old sweat in an earlier post, as by 1914 he would have been beyond the age for normal service.  However, the Royal Marines had a long tradition of extended service on the home establishment in a number of roles, including shore base police.  I suspect that he was either, on extended service, or had volunteered on the outbreak of war.  Employing him would have freed up a younger butcher for service elsewhere.  The stance of the two men in the second photo does suggest an easy familiarity and I too wonder if the younger man is a son or perhaps nephew.

 

There is some interesting detail regarding HMS EXCELLENT here: http://stuartcrow.com/wp/hms-excellent-1830-1930/

 

Edited 26 May , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[horatio2]

Especially as 

7 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

I suspect that he was either, on extended service, or had volunteered on the outbreak of war.

As an RMLI Pensioner (after 21 years service) from Jan 1903 he was liable to be called upon by the Admiralty to serve in the Fleet in an emergency. The fact that he chose to join the RFR (as a Class 'A' Pensioner) made no difference to his liability to be called foward but did commit him to attend annual training. From the age of 50 he earned extra (RFR) pension but was still liable for recall. His mobilisation from the RFR clearly happened on 2 August 1914. He was demobilised in May 1919.

Since Davis spent the war at EXCELLENT, the rating wearing an EXCELLENT cap tally comes as no surprise.

[FROGSMILE]

6 minutes ago, horatio2 said:

Especially as 

As an RMLI Pensioner (after 21 years service) from Jan 1903 he was liable to be called upon by the Admiralty to serve in the Fleet in an emergency. The fact that he chose to join the RFR (as a Class 'A' Pensioner) made no difference to his liability to be called foward but did commit him to attend annual training. From the age of 50 he earned extra (RFR) pension but was still liable for recall. His mobilisation from the RFR clearly happened on 2 August 1914. He was demobilised in May 1919.

Since Davis spent the war at EXCELLENT, the rating wearing an EXCELLENT cap tally comes as no surprise.

Thank you horatio2, that fits with initial assessment in post #3. 

It did occur to me that they were at the same base, but gut feeling tells me there’s perhaps a reason beyond being ‘shipmates’ as to why a fairly elderly old bootneck should be photographed with a relatively young naval rating.

Edited 26 May , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[RNCVR]

I was thinking of the RN rating also, considering yr response Froggie. I tried enlarging the photo to try to determine if indeed he did have a rate badge on his right sleeve, but unable to pick anything out with any degree of certainty.

But what I did notice was what could be a wedding ring on his 3rd finger left hand - could be be married?

Think unlikely tho at his rate of pay would never support a wife & possibly children.

 

What their realtionship would be I dont know, but I would guess at son or perhaps nephew. 

 

Does census reveal if Davis had male children & might one be of age for entry into RN around start of 1WW?

Having a possible name & a check of his ADM 188 might reveal that mystery?

 

Best...Bryan

 

P\S - Froggie,  I have the Centenary edition of the HMS EXCELLENT book - 1930.  Gives a lot of info on the founding & early yrs of Excellent & summary of all of her Captains & what improvements were carried out during  their terms of appointment.

[RNCVR]

Another thing that concerns me about the 2nd(older) image of Davis, if it indeed Davis.

He should be wearing his GCB,s (he earned 5) & his LS ribbon, but has nothing on his tunic.

 

Would there be a reason for this if the RPPC was taken during wartime? Or is insignia & ribbons not worn on this style of tunic?  I admit I am not knowledgable concerning RMA & RMLI uniforms & dress regs.