RAOC Numbering - North Russia Relief Force

[Peter35]

I don’t know if this is an RAOC Numbers’ matter, an Armourer Sergeant matter, a North Russia Relief Force matter, or some combination.

 

I have (Ancestry) Pension Records for four Armourer Sergeants who Reenlisted in the RAOC for the North Russia Relief Force. The reason for their Discharge is noted on their previous Statement of Service, having Discharged one day and Reenlisted for the RRF the following day under the higher / new number.

 

Three Reenlisted between July 9 and July 17, 1919. The Numbers range between 3389 and 3395. The fourth Reenlisted on May 14 with Number (out of numerical sequence) 3427.

 

In an attempt to estimate how many Armourer Sergeants served in the RRF, I searched Numbers 3350 – 3370 and 3388 – 3426.

 

I found only one additional Pension Record. This Armourer Sergeant did not Reenlist for the RRF. Both his ‘old’ / former and new Statements of Service carry the notation: “25 February, 1919. Reenlisted with the RAOC until 31 March 1923”. That is, he Attested for Short Service (Until 31^st March 1923).

 

Given the Government announced recruitment for the RRF on 8^th April, I can understand why volunteers were required to Reenlist.

 

However, can anyone advise why,  rather than simply Reengage (with continuation of same Service Number) as seemed to be the common practice when a man extended his Service, this man formally Discharged and Reenlisted?

 

Peter

[wrightdw]

Hi Peter,

 

There were two brigades of the North Russia Relief Force, 1st (Grogan's) Brigade was made up of men still serving who were drafted into the brigade (it's two infantry battalion's 1OBLI and 2Hampshire were 'rainbow' battalions made up of drafts of a number of regiments) whereas 2nd (Sadleir-Jackson's) Brigade was made up of discharged men who re-enlisted for service.

 

The fact your man discharged and re-enlisted with a new number puts him with 2nd Brigade, NRRF.

 

Enlistments for 2nd Brigade, NRRF volunteered to serve for 1 year by signing ‘Army Form B250A Short Service’: You will engage to serve His Majesty as a Soldier in the Regular Forces for one year provided your services are no longer required for the Special Service for which you have been enlisted, you will be discharged with all convenient speed.

 

Why was 1st Brigade of the NRRF made up of serving men drafted in and why was 2nd Brigade made up of discharged men who volunteered? By April 1919 large number of soldiers had already been discharged and had to be specifically re-engaged for Special Service to serve in Russia. The War Office wanted to recruit volunteers from the Empire troops sitting it out in England awaiting a troopship home, the Canadians, Australians and South Africans in particular. Ottawa did not give permission for CEF men to seek discharge in UK to enlist in the NRRF and pulled its CEF troops (an artillery brigade and 'Malamute' dog company) out of North Russia in June 1919 whereas the Australians and South African authorities allowed their troops to discharge in UK in order to enlist in the British Army for the NRRF and about 120 Australians and a number of South Africans and Rhodesians did so.

 

The RAOC units which served in North Russia are recorded on the Orders of Battle as 'Detachment' and were not numbered, they were known as 'RAOC Detachment, NREF' and 'RAOC Detachment, NRRF' etc.

 

An analysis of the numbers of RAOC men who were awarded decorations for service in North Russia 1918-19 reveals a mix of 'A', 'S', 'T' prefixes and 01, 02 and 03 numbers.

 

If you are particularly interested in North Russia 1918-19 and the North Russia Relief Force of 1919 I would recommend obtaining a copy of my book on the campaign.

 

[Peter35]

Damien,

 

Thank you for your reply and information.

 

As noted, I was able to identify four Armourer Sergeants whose Numbers, of course, would have been prefixed by A.

 

I’m interested in the number of Armourers who volunteered, and names, ideally. Are such details readily available in your Churchill's Secret War With Lenin; “awarded decorations” list or elsewhere to your knowledge?

 

I’m in Sydney. From your advice, both Sergeant Pearse, VC, and Corporal Sullivan, VC, were in the 2nd Brigade, NRRF?

[wrightdw]

Hi Peter,

 

Correct, Pearse and Sullivan were part of the Australian volunteer contingent for the NRRF posted to 45th Battalion, Royal Fusiliers (45th and 46th Royal Fusileirs were formed specifically for service with the NRRF and disbanded on return to UK) and 201st (Special) Bn., Machine Gun Corps, about 100 Aussies were posted to the 'Australian Company' of 45th Royal Fusiliers and about 20 to 'Australian Section', 201st MGC, both units part of 2nd (Sadleir-Jackson's) Brigade, NRRF.

 

The following RAOC men were awarded MSM in Russia 1918-20, their service numbers may be useful for your research:

 

ALLEWAY, S/7714, Pte. (A./S.Q.M.S.) H.J., M.S.M., R.A.O.C. ([E] Woolwich) (SIBERIA) (London Gazette, 22^nd January 1920) “…for valuable services rendered in connection with the British Forces in Siberia.”

BARBER, 028811, Pte. (A./Sjt.) E., M.S.M., R.A.O.C. (Leicester) (SOUTH RUSSIA) (London Gazette, 28^th October 1920) “…in recognition of valuable services rendered with the British Military Mission, South Russia.”

BATCHFORD, 01181, S.Sjt. (A./S.Q.M.S.) E.F., M.S.M., R.A.O.C. (Southgate, Gloucester) (NORTH RUSSIA [MURMANSK]) (London Gazette, 3^rd October 1919) “…in recognition of valuable service rendered with the British Force in North Russia.”

BAWDEN, S/5913, T./Sub-Condr. C.A., M.S.M., R.A.O.C. (Mill Hill) (NORTH RUSSIA [MURMANSK]) (London Gazette, 13^th August 1919) “…in recognition of valuable service rendered with the British Forces in North Russia.”

BORLEY, S/5725, T./Sub.-Condr. G.W., M.S.M., R.A.O.C. ([E] Woolwich) (SIBERIA) (London Gazette, 22^nd January 1920) “…for valuable services rendered in connection with the British Forces in Siberia.”

BROOKS, S/5496, T./Sub.-Condr. G.H., M.S.M., R.A.O.C. ([E] Woolwich) (SIBERIA) (London Gazette, 22^nd January 1920) “…for valuable services rendered in connection with the British Forces in Siberia.”

CHAPMAN, S/4964, Pte. (A./Sjt.) J.E., M.S.M., R.A.O.C. (Hassocks) (NORTH RUSSIA [?]) (London Gazette, 1^st January 1919) “…in recognition of valuable services rendered with the forces in Northern Russia.”

CONYERS, S/4011, Condr. A.W., M.S.M., R.A.O.C. (Welling) (NORTH RUSSIA [ARCHANGEL]) (London Gazette, 13^th August 1919) “…in recognition of valuable service rendered with the British Forces in North Russia.”

CRIBB, A/2775, Armr. S./Sjt. W., M.S.M., R.A.O.C. (Plumstead) (SOUTH RUSSIA) (London Gazette, 28^th October 1920) “…in recognition of valuable services rendered with the British Military Mission, South Russia.”

CUBITT, 035434, Pte. E.A., M.S.M., R.A.O.C. ([E] Woolwich) (SIBERIA) (London Gazette, 22^nd January 1920) “…for valuable services rendered in connection with the British Forces in Siberia.”

EAMES, 020535, Pte. (A./Cpl.) T.G., M.S.M., R.A.O.C. (Portmadoc) (NORTH RUSSIA [MURMANSK]) (London Gazette, 3^rd October 1919) “…in recognition of valuable service rendered with the British Force in North Russia.”

FAIRWEATHER, A/1209, Arm./S.Sjt. A., M.S.M., R.A.O.C.  (Enfield Wash) (NORTH RUSSIA [ARCHANGEL]) (London Gazette, 3^rd June 1919) “…for distinguished services rendered in connection with Military Operations in North Russia.”

FIELD, S/6588, T./Sub.-Condr. J.F., M.S.M., R.A.O.C. ([E] Woolwich) (SIBERIA) (London Gazette, 22^nd January 1920) “…for valuable services rendered in connection with the British Forces in Siberia.”

GALLETLEY, S/6791, S./Sjt. M.G., M.S.M., R.A.O.C. (Stirling) (NORTH RUSSIA [MURMANSK]) (London Gazette, 3^rd January 1920) “…in recognition of valuable services rendered with the British Forces in North Russia.”

GIBSON, 01327 S.Sjt. W., M.S.M., R.A.O.C. (Ashington) (NORTH RUSSIA [ARCHANGEL]) (London Gazette, 3^rd June 1919) “…for distinguished services rendered in connection with Military Operations in North Russia.”

GRIFFIN, S/6577, 2^nd Cpl. (A./Sub.-Condr.) H.R., M.S.M., R.A.O.C. (Jersey) (SOUTH RUSSIA) (London Gazette, 4^th March 1920) “…in recognition of valuable services rendered with the British Military Mission to South Russia.”

HADLEY, T/1566, Amt. S.Sjt. A.A., M.S.M., R.A.O.C. (Walthamstow) (NORTH RUSSIA [ARCHANGEL]) (London Gazette, 13^th August 1919) “…in recognition of valuable service rendered with the British Forces in North Russia.”  (for work developing improvised sight for 60 pdr. made from parts of other sights.)

HALL, S/6997, T./S./Sjt. P., M.S.M., R.A.O.C. ([E] Woolwich) (NORTH RUSSIA [ARCHANGEL]) (London Gazette, 3^rd January 1920) “…in recognition of valuable services rendered with the British Force in North Russia.” 

HOOKER, T/402, Armt./S./Sjt. (A./Armt./Sjt.-Mjr.) A., M.S.M., R.A.O.C. (Leek) (SOUTH RUSSIA) (London Gazette, 28^th October 1920) “…in recognition of valuable services rendered with the British Military Mission, South Russia.”

ISAACS, O/2660, Sjt. (A./S.Sjt.) C., M.S.M., R.A.O.C. (Birmingham) (NORTH RUSSIA [MURMANSK]) (London Gazette, 13^th August 1919) “…in recognition of valuable service rendered with the British Forces in North Russia.”

JORDAN, S/6252, Pte. (T./S.Q.M.S.) H., M.S.M., R.A.O.C. ([E] Woolwich) (SIBERIA) (London Gazette, 22^nd January 1920) “…for valuable services rendered in connection with the British Forces in Siberia.”

KILLICK, T/1740, Armt./S./Sjt. A.J., M.S.M., R.A.O.C. (Horsham) (SOUTH RUSSIA) (London Gazette, 28^th October 1920) “…in recognition of valuable services rendered with the British Military Mission, South Russia.”

LAMB, S/4702, Condr. A., M.S.M., R.A.O.C. ([E] Woolwich) (NORTH RUSSIA [ARCHANGEL]) (London Gazette, 3^rd January 1920) “…in recognition of valuable services rendered with the British Force in North Russia.”

LANGLEY, A/3033, Armr./S./Sjt. A., M.S.M., R.A.O.C. ([E] Woolwich) (NORTH RUSSIA [ARCHANGEL]) (London Gazette, 3^rd January 1920) “…in recognition of valuable services rendered with the British Force in North Russia.”

LEROY, S/4450, Condr. D., M.S.M., R.A.O.C. (Gravesend) (NORTH RUSSIA [?]) (London Gazette, 1^st January 1919) “…in recognition of valuable services rendered with the forces in Northern Russia.”

MacFARLANE, 040921, Sjt. (A./S./Sjt.) A., M.S.M., R.A.O.C. (Glasgow) (NORTH RUSSIA [MURMANSK]) (London Gazette, 3^rd January 1920) “…in recognition of valuable services rendered with the British Forces in North Russia.”

MACKRETH, T/383, Amt./S./Sjt. (A./Amt./Sjt. Mjr.) W., M.S.M., R.A.O.C. (Newcastle-on-Tyne) (NORTH RUSSIA [ARCHANGEL]) (London Gazette, 3^rd January 1920) “…in recognition of valuable services rendered with the British Force in North Russia.”

MORRISON, A/2669, Armr./S,/Sjt. G.A., M.S.M., R.A.O.C. (Aberdeen) (SOUTH RUSSIA) (London Gazette, 28^th October 1920) “…in recognition of valuable services rendered with the British Military Mission, South Russia.”  (MID, Lon. Gaz. 16^th July 1920, see MID section)

NEWBY, S/5471, T./Sub.-Condr. W., M.S.M., R.A.O.C. ([E] Woolwich) (SIBERIA) (London Gazette, 22^nd January 1920) “…for valuable services rendered in connection with the British Forces in Siberia.”

PETERS, A/3162, Armr. S.Sjt. H.J., M.S.M., R.A.O.C. (Clapham) (NORTH RUSSIA [ARCHANGEL]) (London Gazette, 3^rd October 1919) “…in recognition of valuable service rendered with the British Force in North Russia.”

PRITCHARD, 023073, Cpl. E., M.S.M., R.A.O.C. (Dorchester) (NORTH RUSSIA [MURMANSK]) (London Gazette, 3^rd January 1920) “…in recognition of valuable services rendered with the British Forces in North Russia.”

SHELTON, 01620, Cpl. (A./S./Sjt.) C.S., M.S.M., R.A.O.C. ([E] Woolwich) (SIBERIA) (London Gazette, 22^nd January 1920) “…for valuable services rendered in connection with the British Forces in Siberia.”

STEVENSON, S/6101, Pte. (A./Sub-Condr.) A.H., M.S.M., R.A.O.C. (Windsor) (NORTH RUSSIA [MURMANSK]) (London Gazette, 3^rd June 1919) “…in recognition of valuable service rendered with the British Forces in North Russia.”

TAYLOR, S/6722, Pte. (T./S.Sjt.) A., M.S.M., R.A.O.C. (Colchester) (NORTH RUSSIA [ARCHANGEL]) (London Gazette, 13^th August 1919) “…in recognition of valuable service rendered with the British Forces in North Russia.”

TAYLOR, T/22713, S.S.M. C., M.S.M., R.A.O.C. (Chesterfield) (NORTH RUSSIA [ARCHANGEL]) (London Gazette, 3^rd October 1919) “…in recognition of valuable service rendered with the British Force in North Russia.”

THEOBALD, 018762, Pte. (A./Sjt.) F., M.S.M., R.A.O.C. (Liverpool) (NORTH RUSSIA [MURMANSK]) (London Gazette, 3^rd October 1919) “…in recognition of valuable service rendered with the British Force in North Russia.”

in North Russia.”

WILLIAMS, 029521, 2^nd Cpl. C.F., M.S.M., R.A.O.C. ([E] Woolwich) (SIBERIA) (London Gazette, 22^nd January 1920) “…for valuable services rendered in connection with the British Forces in Siberia.”

WILLIAMS, 013529, Cpl. (A./Sjt.) F.N., M.S.M., R.A.O.C. ([E] Woolwich) (SIBERIA) (London Gazette, 22^nd January 1920) “…for valuable services rendered in connection with the British Forces in Siberia.”

WOOD, 010738, Sjt. (A./S.Sjt.) J.W.M., M.S.M., R.A.O.C. (Holloway) (NORTH RUSSIA [ARCHANGEL]) (London Gazette, 3^rd June 1919) “…for distinguished services rendered in connection with Military Operations in North Russia.”

 

[Peter35]

Damien,

 

A quick note to thank you for the RAOC listing. Very kind.

 

Much for me to work through: new names (none of the four men I’ve identified included) ….. at least two with 1911 and 1916 numbers; so drafted into the 1^st Brigade …..  and to my surprise, some Armament Sergeants, one of whom joined as a 22 yo Ordnance Artificer in 1888 and discharged in 1901; before joining up in September 1914.

[Peter35]

Mr Swan,

 

Two possibilities. Firstly, your grandfather could have been a serving man and thus, pursuant to Damien’s advice, drafted to 1^st Brigade. I looked for his Records and, as I’m sure you know, couldn’t find them.

 

Secondly. He could have discharged from the RAMC and volunteered. However, and you should treat this with caution, I don’t think he did:

 

As noted above, I searched the Numbers of sixty men who had discharged from the RAOC and volunteered ….. by their new / reenlisted Number. I found forty five of the men on Ancestry’s WWI Service Medal and Award Rolls, 1914-1920. In every case, their old / previous number was shown in the Previous Unit / Corps details column of the Record.

EDIT:

I am incorrect in saying “and volunteered”. I do not know that (although I’m sure they did not).

Of the sixty Numbers I searched, I found forty five in the Service Medal and Award Rolls. All forty five had a new Number.

However, while the numerical range of the sixty included the Numbers of the four men for whom I had Service Records recording their reenlistment in the RRF, I did not find Service Records for any of those forty five men. I do not know why those forty five reenlisted.

 

For your ‘Grandfather exercise’, I spot checked about ten of those forty five men by searching the Service Medal and Award Rolls using their old / previous number. In every case, the Results identified the man under his new / reenlisted Number. And in every case, the old / previous number was shown in the Previous Unit / Corps details column.

 

In short, as your Grandfather’s Service Medal and Award Roll does not show any other Number / previous Unit details, I would suggest he did not discharge from the RAMC and volunteer.

[kenf48]

18 hours ago, MrSwan said:

so can I assume that there was a campaign medal issued for North Russia and that he was a recipient?

 

For clarification the eligibility of the BWM and Victory Medal was extended to those who participated in the Russia Campaign up to 1st July 1920.  There was no campaign medal.

 

The other two may have been foreign awards but the thought occurs they may have been WW2 Medals in which case his records may be at Veteran Affairs.  Worth a punt, there is a spreadsheet on the forum somewhere but you may need to start a separate thread.

[Peter35]

Jonathan,

 

My main interests traverse the nineteenth century, so here I'm even more ignorant than usual, but ...

 

Given you know his unit details, is there a War Diary/ies that just might add something to your puzzle? (And speaking of punts, if you do pursue that, a more appropriate sub forum might be your best bet). 

[wrightdw]

154th Field Ambulance, RAMC was part of Murmansk Command, North Russia Expeditionary Force, 1918-19.

[wrightdw]

Here is an image of Sgt. Hadley, RAOC from Walthamstow in his workshop in North Russia. I would guess it was at Bereznik, advanced base on the Dvina River.

 

His MSM was for work improving the sights of the 60pdr guns which arrived in April 1919 by using parts from other sights. Before that the Red army outranged the British guns.

 

HADLEY, T/1566, Amt. S.Sjt. A.A., M.S.M., R.A.O.C. (Walthamstow) (NORTH RUSSIA [ARCHANGEL]) (London Gazette, 13^th August 1919) “…in recognition of valuable service rendered with the British Forces in North Russia.” 

[Peter35]

Thank you for posting this terrific photo and additional information.

 

Could find neither Pension nor Service Records. Medal Roll records him as Armament Sergeant Major. His is an 1914 Number.

[wrightdw]

Here are RAOC other ranks MID's for service in Russia:

 

 

London Gazette, 5^th June 1919 (Murmansk & Archangel):

“The names of the undermentioned have been brought to the notice of the Secretary of State for War by Major-General W.E. Ironside, C.M.G., D.S.O., Commanding-in-Chief, Northern Russia Expeditionary Force, for valuable and distinguished services rendered in connection with the operations at Archangel.”

BLOWER, S/4652, S./Sjt. F., R.A.O.C.

EVERETT, 021418, Sjt. H.W., R.A.O.C.

FROST, 040407, Sjt. H.E., R.A.O.C.

FURLONG, S/6942, S./Sjt. L., R.A.O.C.

GATENBY, S/5320, Sjt. (T./Sub.-Condr.) R., R.A.O.C.

McDONALD, S/5830, Sjt. (T./S./Sjt.) J.T., R.A.O.C.

MORRIS, 013426, Sjt. J., R.A.O.C.

RHIND, 040303, Sjt. J.M., R.A.O.C.

UREN, 034390, Sjt. A., R.A.O.C.

“The names of the undermentioned have been brought to the notice of the Secretary of State for War by Major-General C.C.M. Maynard, C.B., C.M.G., D.S.O., Commanding-in-Chief, Allied Land Forces, Murmansk District for valuable and distinguished service rendered in connection with the operations at Murmansk.”

LYDDIATT, 028382, L./Cpl. (A./Sjt.) W.J., R.A.O.C.

THEOBOLD, 018762, L./Cpl. (A./Sjt.) F., R.A.O.C.

 

London Gazette, 16^th July 1920 (South Russia):

 

“The names of the undermentioned have been brought to the notice of the Secretary of State for War by Major-General H.C. Holman, K.C.B., C.M.G., D.S.O., for valuable and distinguished services rendered with the British Military Mission in South Russia. Dated 15^th March, 1920:”

 

MORRISON, A/2669, S./Sjt. A.G., R.A.O.C.

 

 

[Peter35]

Thank you, Damien.

 

Morrison is amongst your MSM listing (#4).

 

Interestingly, given their Numbers, all those Armourers were serving men drafted into 1^st Brigade.

[Peter35]

Now that wrightdw has answered my RRF question, I’m bumping this regarding my other question:

 

RAOC Numbering

 

I’ve searched WWI Medal Rolls Index Cards for Armourer Sergeants’ Numbers 3350 – 3370 and 3388 – 3426.

 

I found only one Pension Record for the men in these sequences. Both his ‘old’ / former and new Statements of Service carry the notation: “25 February, 1919. Reenlisted with the RAOC until 31 March 1923”. That is, he Attested for Short Service (Until 31^st March 1923).

 

(The sequences included a few Armourer Sergeants who resigned to volunteer / reenlist for the RFF. However, it is difficult to imagine the sequences could include large numbers of reenlisting Armourer Sergeants. Much more likely they (Re) Attested for Short Service).

 

Can anyone advise why, rather than simply Reengage (with continuation of same Service Number) as was common practice when a man extended his Service, these men, presumably, formally Discharged and Reenlisted?