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Remembered Today:

Manchester Regt DCM MM


Paul Reed

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I have had this postcard for many, many years. It has always intruiged me; a young soldier, with what appears to be the DCM as well as the MM, plus a SB (Stretcher Bearers) armband. What story lies behind this?

The only clues are his shoulder title, visible on the original, which is Manchester Regiment and that the photo was taken in Manchester - so he is probably from the city - a Manchester Pal?

If anyone recognises him or can suggest any leads, I would be grateful.

post-6-1115808134.jpg

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Paul

I don't have any information on the following battalions - 1st, 2nd, 11th, 13th, 24th or any 2nd line TF, but there a several candidates for DCM & MM winners amongst the rest. The photo shows a Private, but the chap presumably might have been promoted during the course of the war:-

Sgt T F Johnson, 20999, 22nd Bn

Cpl W Kenyon 48634, 21st Bn

CSM J Lucy 19442, 21st Bn

CSM J B Smith, 18729, 21st

CSM C W Hanes, 4803, 12 th

Sgt D Marton, 61429, 12th

Cpl G Royle, 9014, 17th

Sgt J Curran, 38544, 17th

L/Cpl A Butterworth, 10235, 18th

Cpl A C Dean, 43658, 18th

Sgt J Horsefield, 1/9th

Sgt S R Lees, 1/10th

Sgt J W Green 1/7th

CSM Tabbron, 1/7th

Sgt H Harrison, 1/8

I've just extracted these names from various awards lists I have BUT I spotted Corporal A C Dean's DCM citation in Mike Stedman's Manchester Pals:-

"For conspicuous gallantry and devotion to duty. He supervsied and organised the regimental stretcher bearers and set a fine example by repeatedly going out under heavy fire and bringing in wounded men".

Gazette, 4/6/17. MM 28/9/17

John

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Thanks for that John - a starting point, at least and Dean looks like a possible candidate. If I turn up anything more I will post it here.

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Paul/John

If the shoulder title is just Manchester, rather than a City Battalion title, that should narrow it down somewhat

I have the DCM citations for the regiment at home, if i get chance tonight i'll have a look to see if the SB bit is a clue

i'll (probably) be seeing david next week, so i could ask the question for you

chris

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If the shoulder title is just Manchester, rather than a City Battalion title, that should narrow it down somewhat

Chris/Paul.

Sorry to muddy the waters a little, but with the photograph being mid-1916 at the earliest, the title (unless it's a "T" title) might not help all that much. By July/August 1916 many of the City battalions soldiers were also wearing the ordinary "Manchester" title rather than the "City" title.

Dave.

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Paul

Stretcher bearers from the DCM citations in alpha order, they may be others, but these have SB or recovering wounded in the citation

Adams A 19630 21st bn (pal)

Allen R 27318

Armes C 6152 1st Bn

Barnes S 376870

Currie J 1328 1st bn

Dean A C 43658

Mansfield J 18949 21st bn (pal)

McMullen 8673 2nd bn

Pascoe C F 43143

Pollet C F 25011

Roberts A E 22863 23rd bn (pal)

Seddon T 2120 5th bn

Willis A 1114 1st bn

I have added the battalion (and pal) if I could find them in the Manchester City Battalion, i would have expected them to have oval (City-number-Manchester ) shoulder titles.

edit.. just seen Dave's comment, glad I left the pals in then :D

chris

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For John and his fiver (give it to the forum? we'll frame it :lol: )

43658 CPL A C DEAN

For conspicuous gallantry and devotion to duty. He supervised and organised the regimental stretcher-bearers, and set a fine example by repeatedly going out under heavy fire and bringing in wounded men (9.7.17)

chris

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Paul, this is perhaps a little bit off topic, but a couple of days ago I picked a book up in the local library that is classed as fiction. It says that it is the war time diaries of a concientious objector who joins the RAMC as a stretcher bearer. The hero of the book wins a DCM and Bar, MM and Bar. I was going to post a thread asking if this was likely. You seem to have found a real life guy who nearly fits the bill!

The book is called "A Light in the Darkness" and the author is John Kidd.

Regards Geoff

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I'm still having a fiver that this is Cpl Dean. If I'm proved wrong, the fiver goes to the Forum.

John

Just looked up Dean in the London Gazette - he was from Stratford in Essex. Why would he have his photo taken in Manchester?

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So, at present, my bet on Dean is a 12 to 1 shot, according to Chris' list.

And, Chris, before you start buying a frame, how many of 'em also got a MM?

Apart from Dean, of course.

Although him being an Essex lad makes it interesting

John

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And, Chris, before you start buying a frame, how many of 'em also got a MM?

John

;) i think the MM shortens the odds even more! i'll put the wedding photo back in it's frame!

the sn is well after the intial 'allocation' for the 18th, why manchester? local official photographer for the regiment? just a guess

this is perhaps a little bit off topic, but a couple of days ago I picked a book up in the local library that is classed as fiction. It says that it is the war time diaries of a concientious objector who joins the RAMC as a stretcher bearer. The hero of the book wins a DCM and Bar, MM and Bar

wasn't the most famous fictional stretcher-bearer with an MM, private godfrey from dads army

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Paul, the book is published by

The Book Guild Ltd

25, High Street

Lewes, East Sussex

BN27 2LU

ISBN 1 85776 842 6

Copywright 2004

Byetheway, I am not necessarily recommending the book, I was fascinated by the possibility that a stretcher bearer may have won DCM & Bar, MM & Bar, because sometimes truth can be stranger than fiction. As to the accuracy of the book, I don't really have sufficient knowledge to comment. For example, our hero carries German wounded to the german trenches as well as tommies to the allied trenches. Did this happen?

I'd vote for Private Godfrey remaining the most famous fictional stretcher bearer.

Regards Geoff

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Paul

Truth is indeed stranger than fiction - L/Cpl W. Coltman V.C., a stretcher-bearer in the North Staffordshire Regiment. He was the most decorated soldier of the first world war, in addition to his Victoria Cross he was awarded the DCM and Bar and the MM and Bar.

Apologies for intruding on your thread.

Regards Geoff

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When I read the book I was not aware that stretcher bearers were so highly honoured, but thinking about the job they did, I should not have been surprised.

Regards Geoff

The courage is must have taken to go into no mans under fire, to collect a wounded man and return him to safety

then go back and do it again ( and again) is simply beyond my comprehension

incredibly brave!

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Pals

Gossip suggests that a name will shortly appear here, with some supporting evidence, that somewhat undermines my support for Dean being the chap in Paul's photo.

My fiver is now sitting in the bulging coffers that are Mr Baker's.

John

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as John suggested I have had a reply from David Hopkins, who very kindly looked at this thread for us

I don't buy the Dean theory for the

following reasons: a) according to what I have here he was a Corporal

when the award was gazetted and I see no stripes and b ) a quick check on

the MICs online reveals that Dean was 874 Pte AC Dean in the LFs before

going to 18th Manchesters as 43658 and ending up as a Sjt.  This

suggests to me that he was at least a prewar terrier if not a prewar regular

(the Medal Rolls will confirm one or the other) and this guy looks just

too young - considering the picture must have been taken post September

1917 (date of Dean's MM) to be Dean.

So that leaves us with who is it?  There 350 odd Manchester DCM

winners, 31 of whom also received MMs. 5 of these are MM and Bar.  Two of the

31 (incl Dean) mention Stretcher bearing in the citation, and one a

regimental aid post.  Regimental Aid Post man is one Sjt H Harrison, but

again the no stripes thing rules him out for me.  WHich leaves 376870

Pte S Barnes of 2/10th Battalion - citation reads:  For conspicuous

gallantry and devotion to duty as a Stretcher Bearer. On one occasion, he

was, for several hours, under continuous rifle and machine gun fire,

searching for two men who had been lost on a patrol.  Gazette date

17/4/1918.  MM date 14/1/1918.

Can't say for sure either that it is Barnes or that it definitely isn't

Dean, but the balance to me weighs in favour of Barnes.  One thing

about Barnes did trouble me though and that is he was 2/10th.  Not sure

therefore whether he should have T 10 Manchester shoulder titles.  BUT his

DCM was dated 1st January 1918 and gazetted 17/4/1918. 2/10 Manchester

disbanded in the 4 battalions to 3 battalions reduction in early 1918,

and he might have gone to 1/10th or other Manchester battalions in 42nd

Div.  Also not sure exactly how long the territorials' individual

titles lasted.

Might be prepared to come down a bit more conclusively just to see John

frame his fiver though!

Best wishes

David

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Thanks for this additional information; it could well be Pte Barnes. I am sure most TF Bns stopped wearing the big TF titles as they got caught on 08 webbing etc. This certainly happened in the London Regt from about 1917 onwards. However, didn't 2/10th Manchesters have a large battle flash? Strange he is not wearing it, as he has his SB armband?

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