Paul Reed Posted 17 February , 2005 Share Posted 17 February , 2005 I have had this postcard for many, many years. It has always intruiged me; a young soldier, with what appears to be the DCM as well as the MM, plus a SB (Stretcher Bearers) armband. What story lies behind this? The only clues are his shoulder title, visible on the original, which is Manchester Regiment and that the photo was taken in Manchester - so he is probably from the city - a Manchester Pal? If anyone recognises him or can suggest any leads, I would be grateful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 17 February , 2005 Author Share Posted 17 February , 2005 Close up of his ribbons; must be a DCM? Surely can't be a QSA given his apparent age? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 17 February , 2005 Share Posted 17 February , 2005 Paul I don't have any information on the following battalions - 1st, 2nd, 11th, 13th, 24th or any 2nd line TF, but there a several candidates for DCM & MM winners amongst the rest. The photo shows a Private, but the chap presumably might have been promoted during the course of the war:- Sgt T F Johnson, 20999, 22nd Bn Cpl W Kenyon 48634, 21st Bn CSM J Lucy 19442, 21st Bn CSM J B Smith, 18729, 21st CSM C W Hanes, 4803, 12 th Sgt D Marton, 61429, 12th Cpl G Royle, 9014, 17th Sgt J Curran, 38544, 17th L/Cpl A Butterworth, 10235, 18th Cpl A C Dean, 43658, 18th Sgt J Horsefield, 1/9th Sgt S R Lees, 1/10th Sgt J W Green 1/7th CSM Tabbron, 1/7th Sgt H Harrison, 1/8 I've just extracted these names from various awards lists I have BUT I spotted Corporal A C Dean's DCM citation in Mike Stedman's Manchester Pals:- "For conspicuous gallantry and devotion to duty. He supervsied and organised the regimental stretcher bearers and set a fine example by repeatedly going out under heavy fire and bringing in wounded men". Gazette, 4/6/17. MM 28/9/17 John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 17 February , 2005 Author Share Posted 17 February , 2005 Thanks for that John - a starting point, at least and Dean looks like a possible candidate. If I turn up anything more I will post it here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 17 February , 2005 Share Posted 17 February , 2005 Paul Might be worth you giving David Hopkins at the Regimental Museum a ring. They might have some info. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harribobs Posted 17 February , 2005 Share Posted 17 February , 2005 Paul/John If the shoulder title is just Manchester, rather than a City Battalion title, that should narrow it down somewhat I have the DCM citations for the regiment at home, if i get chance tonight i'll have a look to see if the SB bit is a clue i'll (probably) be seeing david next week, so i could ask the question for you chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 17 February , 2005 Author Share Posted 17 February , 2005 Many thanks - I would appreciate that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 17 February , 2005 Share Posted 17 February , 2005 If the shoulder title is just Manchester, rather than a City Battalion title, that should narrow it down somewhat Chris/Paul. Sorry to muddy the waters a little, but with the photograph being mid-1916 at the earliest, the title (unless it's a "T" title) might not help all that much. By July/August 1916 many of the City battalions soldiers were also wearing the ordinary "Manchester" title rather than the "City" title. Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 17 February , 2005 Author Share Posted 17 February , 2005 Dave - I would agree with that. It might just prove impossible to ID this man, but it's worth a try! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 17 February , 2005 Share Posted 17 February , 2005 I'm still having a fiver that this is Cpl Dean. If I'm proved wrong, the fiver goes to the Forum. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harribobs Posted 17 February , 2005 Share Posted 17 February , 2005 Paul Stretcher bearers from the DCM citations in alpha order, they may be others, but these have SB or recovering wounded in the citation Adams A 19630 21st bn (pal) Allen R 27318 Armes C 6152 1st Bn Barnes S 376870 Currie J 1328 1st bn Dean A C 43658 Mansfield J 18949 21st bn (pal) McMullen 8673 2nd bn Pascoe C F 43143 Pollet C F 25011 Roberts A E 22863 23rd bn (pal) Seddon T 2120 5th bn Willis A 1114 1st bn I have added the battalion (and pal) if I could find them in the Manchester City Battalion, i would have expected them to have oval (City-number-Manchester ) shoulder titles. edit.. just seen Dave's comment, glad I left the pals in then chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harribobs Posted 17 February , 2005 Share Posted 17 February , 2005 For John and his fiver (give it to the forum? we'll frame it ) 43658 CPL A C DEAN For conspicuous gallantry and devotion to duty. He supervised and organised the regimental stretcher-bearers, and set a fine example by repeatedly going out under heavy fire and bringing in wounded men (9.7.17) chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StAubyns Posted 17 February , 2005 Share Posted 17 February , 2005 Paul, this is perhaps a little bit off topic, but a couple of days ago I picked a book up in the local library that is classed as fiction. It says that it is the war time diaries of a concientious objector who joins the RAMC as a stretcher bearer. The hero of the book wins a DCM and Bar, MM and Bar. I was going to post a thread asking if this was likely. You seem to have found a real life guy who nearly fits the bill! The book is called "A Light in the Darkness" and the author is John Kidd. Regards Geoff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 17 February , 2005 Author Share Posted 17 February , 2005 Hi Geoff - don't know that book. Do you have a publisher details? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 17 February , 2005 Author Share Posted 17 February , 2005 I'm still having a fiver that this is Cpl Dean. If I'm proved wrong, the fiver goes to the Forum. John Just looked up Dean in the London Gazette - he was from Stratford in Essex. Why would he have his photo taken in Manchester? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 17 February , 2005 Share Posted 17 February , 2005 So, at present, my bet on Dean is a 12 to 1 shot, according to Chris' list. And, Chris, before you start buying a frame, how many of 'em also got a MM? Apart from Dean, of course. Although him being an Essex lad makes it interesting John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harribobs Posted 17 February , 2005 Share Posted 17 February , 2005 And, Chris, before you start buying a frame, how many of 'em also got a MM? John i think the MM shortens the odds even more! i'll put the wedding photo back in it's frame! the sn is well after the intial 'allocation' for the 18th, why manchester? local official photographer for the regiment? just a guess this is perhaps a little bit off topic, but a couple of days ago I picked a book up in the local library that is classed as fiction. It says that it is the war time diaries of a concientious objector who joins the RAMC as a stretcher bearer. The hero of the book wins a DCM and Bar, MM and Bar wasn't the most famous fictional stretcher-bearer with an MM, private godfrey from dads army Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StAubyns Posted 18 February , 2005 Share Posted 18 February , 2005 Paul, the book is published by The Book Guild Ltd 25, High Street Lewes, East Sussex BN27 2LU ISBN 1 85776 842 6 Copywright 2004 Byetheway, I am not necessarily recommending the book, I was fascinated by the possibility that a stretcher bearer may have won DCM & Bar, MM & Bar, because sometimes truth can be stranger than fiction. As to the accuracy of the book, I don't really have sufficient knowledge to comment. For example, our hero carries German wounded to the german trenches as well as tommies to the allied trenches. Did this happen? I'd vote for Private Godfrey remaining the most famous fictional stretcher bearer. Regards Geoff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 18 February , 2005 Author Share Posted 18 February , 2005 Thanks for that Geoff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StAubyns Posted 19 February , 2005 Share Posted 19 February , 2005 Paul Truth is indeed stranger than fiction - L/Cpl W. Coltman V.C., a stretcher-bearer in the North Staffordshire Regiment. He was the most decorated soldier of the first world war, in addition to his Victoria Cross he was awarded the DCM and Bar and the MM and Bar. Apologies for intruding on your thread. Regards Geoff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 19 February , 2005 Author Share Posted 19 February , 2005 Is the book about Coltman then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harribobs Posted 21 February , 2005 Share Posted 21 February , 2005 When I read the book I was not aware that stretcher bearers were so highly honoured, but thinking about the job they did, I should not have been surprised. Regards Geoff The courage is must have taken to go into no mans under fire, to collect a wounded man and return him to safety then go back and do it again ( and again) is simply beyond my comprehension incredibly brave! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 24 February , 2005 Share Posted 24 February , 2005 Pals Gossip suggests that a name will shortly appear here, with some supporting evidence, that somewhat undermines my support for Dean being the chap in Paul's photo. My fiver is now sitting in the bulging coffers that are Mr Baker's. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harribobs Posted 25 February , 2005 Share Posted 25 February , 2005 as John suggested I have had a reply from David Hopkins, who very kindly looked at this thread for us I don't buy the Dean theory for the following reasons: a) according to what I have here he was a Corporal when the award was gazetted and I see no stripes and b ) a quick check on the MICs online reveals that Dean was 874 Pte AC Dean in the LFs before going to 18th Manchesters as 43658 and ending up as a Sjt. This suggests to me that he was at least a prewar terrier if not a prewar regular (the Medal Rolls will confirm one or the other) and this guy looks just too young - considering the picture must have been taken post September 1917 (date of Dean's MM) to be Dean. So that leaves us with who is it? There 350 odd Manchester DCM winners, 31 of whom also received MMs. 5 of these are MM and Bar. Two of the 31 (incl Dean) mention Stretcher bearing in the citation, and one a regimental aid post. Regimental Aid Post man is one Sjt H Harrison, but again the no stripes thing rules him out for me. WHich leaves 376870 Pte S Barnes of 2/10th Battalion - citation reads: For conspicuous gallantry and devotion to duty as a Stretcher Bearer. On one occasion, he was, for several hours, under continuous rifle and machine gun fire, searching for two men who had been lost on a patrol. Gazette date 17/4/1918. MM date 14/1/1918. Can't say for sure either that it is Barnes or that it definitely isn't Dean, but the balance to me weighs in favour of Barnes. One thing about Barnes did trouble me though and that is he was 2/10th. Not sure therefore whether he should have T 10 Manchester shoulder titles. BUT his DCM was dated 1st January 1918 and gazetted 17/4/1918. 2/10 Manchester disbanded in the 4 battalions to 3 battalions reduction in early 1918, and he might have gone to 1/10th or other Manchester battalions in 42nd Div. Also not sure exactly how long the territorials' individual titles lasted. Might be prepared to come down a bit more conclusively just to see John frame his fiver though! Best wishes David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 25 February , 2005 Author Share Posted 25 February , 2005 Thanks for this additional information; it could well be Pte Barnes. I am sure most TF Bns stopped wearing the big TF titles as they got caught on 08 webbing etc. This certainly happened in the London Regt from about 1917 onwards. However, didn't 2/10th Manchesters have a large battle flash? Strange he is not wearing it, as he has his SB armband? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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