Sydney Ashmore 45520

[PRC]

1 hour ago, charlie962 said:

I think he started service in the Army Service Corps c 10th March 1915.

He transferred compulsorily to the KRRC in April 1918.

I think he would have been serving with the ASC in Salonika in 1916 then transferred across to 4th KRRC just before they left Salonika to go to France.

 

So his MM would be won with the 4th KRRC in the last months of the war.

 

Charlie

 

edit - this is based on looking at similar service numbers. See in particular the surviving Service Record for 45519 Edwin Dean who transferred in 1918 from ASC to 4th KRRC.

 Just running through the nearby Service Numbers looks more like men freed up by a combing exercise rather than an Infantry Base Depot clear-out of the recovered sick. Obviously it could be a compulsory transfer of a newly arrived draft but given Sydney Ashmores' age and likely date of signing up it would seem more likely he was in the Salonika Theatre already.

 

So a nearby KRRC service number sample would look like this:-

45515 Samuel J Benning was also 99120 RAMC

45516 Charles Norman was also 17 Bedfords and 44632 Suffolk.

45517 George Marshall was also 98590 RAMC

45518 Ivor R. Prescott was also 52462 RAMC

45519 Edwin Dean was also Driver T/1/790 ASC

45521 Fred M. Bovey was also Driver T4/161112 ASC

45522 Sydney Cousins was also Driver T3/023550 ASC

45523 Thomas C Chastney was also Driver T/36980 ASC

45524 William J Merritt was also Driver T4/122029 ASC & 177904 MGC.

45525 Golden S. Sutton was also Driver T4/059335 ASC.

45526 Stanley Smith was also Driver T/36955

45527 John Woolley was also Driver T4/062104

45529 Sidney L Chapman was also 65362 RAMC

45530 Richard W B Cox was also 65115 RAMC

45531 Frederick Farmer was also 50182 RAMC

45532 James Orrell was also 49912 RAMC

45533 Joseph Read was also 88355 RAMC

45534 Albert Grainger was also 90766 RAMC

45535 George D. Newberry was also 26429 RAMC

 

Cheers,

Peter

[Helen91]

Just been given some further information on Sydney   he was awarded the military medal for charging a machine gun bunker, he was in one of the guards regiments, but don't know much else

[PRC]

51 minutes ago, Helen91 said:

Just been given some further information on Sydney   he was awarded the military medal for charging a machine gun bunker, he was in one of the guards regiments, but don't know much else

 

Hi,

 

Is this family legend or is it documented anywhere? - it's just if he was serving in the Guards then he was not the King's Royal Rifle Corps man that we have been looking at so far.

 

And looking at the Medal Index cards catalogued at the National Archive there is no Sidney \ Sydney \ Charles Ashmore recorded as serving overseas with the Guards, and of the three Ashmore's in any of the Guards Regiments for whom there are Medal Index Card Cards, neither William (Coldstream 6573), John, (Grenadier 9742) or Willie (Coldstream 9242) are shown as winning the Military Medal.

 

Next stop would be to check the rim of the Medal you have - it should show name and service number - hopefully it will confirm the right Sydney has been identified.

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

[ss002d6252]

38 minutes ago, PRC said:

 

Hi,

 

Is this family legend or is it documented anywhere? - it's just if he was serving in the Guards then he was not the King's Royal Rifle Corps man that we have been looking at so far.

 

And looking at the Medal Index cards catalogued at the National Archive there is no Sidney \ Sydney \ Charles Ashmore recorded as serving overseas with the Guards, and of the three Ashmore's in any of the Guards Regiments for whom there are Medal Index Card Cards, neither William (Coldstream 6573), John, (Grenadier 9742) or Willie (Coldstream 9242) are shown as winning the Military Medal.

 

Next stop would be to check the rim of the Medal you have - it should show name and service number - hopefully it will confirm the right Sydney has been identified.

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

Under KRR Corps - Gazette of 23 July 1919

https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBOR%2FLON%2FVOL36%2F1100&parentid=GBOR%2FLON%2FVOL36%2F1100

 

 

Craig

[Helen91]

3 hours ago, ss002d6252 said:

Under KRR Corps - Gazette of 23 July 1919

https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBOR%2FLON%2FVOL36%2F1100&parentid=GBOR%2FLON%2FVOL36%2F1100

 

 

Craig

 

[sadbrewer]

5 hours ago, Helen91 said:

Just been given some further information on Sydney   he was awarded the military medal for charging a machine gun bunker, he was in one of the guards regiments, but don't know much else

 

I'm not dismissing the information Helen, but in my experience we need to be careful about accepting family stories at face value...in my own family we had three different versions of my Grandfather's WW1 Service...one was however more or less correct, the other two were quite ridiculous when compared to documentary evidence.

[Helen91]

2 minutes ago, sadbrewer said:

 

I'm not dismissing the information Helen, but in my experience we need to be careful about accepting family stories at face value...in my own family we had three different versions of my Grandfather's WW1 Service...one was however more or less correct, the other two were quite ridiculous when compared to documentary evidence.

Completely understand. We had one about my own Great Grandfather said he got killed in the war being pulled down from his horse. He didn't he lived a full life and have found out the majority of all the facts and put the family straight :').   I would rather have as much information in as black and white then we know its legit.  It would also help any future generations, if they wanted to follow up the research.

Im hoping to get as much information to be able to pass down to our little one for when she is older and able to understand.

[PRC]

Helen,

 

Thanks for posting those images -  so definately our Army Service Corps man who as @charlie962 has indicated was probably compulsory transferred to the 4th Battalion King's Royal Rifles just as that Battalion was being sent from Salonika to France to help make good the heavy losses in the late March \ early April phase of the German Spring Offensive.

 

The Guards bit is probably a red herring although it may be a case of Chinese Whispers - the War Diary may indicate whether they were going into action "with" the Guards (i.e. alongside), or whether they were attacking a unit like the Prussian Guards, (something in a later retelling that might have been expressed as "thats the point I was into the Guards").

 

Hillingtons not that far from Sandringham and Castle Rising so plenty to see if you should ever visit after lockdown ends.

 

Hope we've helped build a story to pass on to future generations,

 

Peter

 

[charlie962]

7 hours ago, Helen91 said:

Just been given some further information on Sydney   he was awarded the military medal for charging a machine gun bunker, he was in one of the guards regiments, but don't know much else

We have ditched the Guards story I hope! Peter has given possible explanations and he was definitely 4th KRRC when he was wounded and on his MM LG entry. If you read the detailed war diary around this time you may find mention of stiff German resistance in machine gun post and their subsequent capture ?  By coincidence there's another thread in the last few days on the same lines, but different regiment. Often overlooked but the "last hundred days" of the war saw some very hard fighting and although the Germans were going to lose they did not give in easily meaning both sides had heavy casualties.

 

For his ASC service in Salonika, before transfer to KRRC, He could have been in a variety of units. The ASC provided transport services for all branches, from Infantry to Artillery to Ambulance. The T prefix tells us he was involved with Horse rather than Mechanised Transport. We know his rank was Driver, meaning he would be mounted on a horse or perhaps steering a horse-drawn wagon.  What was his civil occupation **?

@Gardenerbill is well up on Salonika ?

 

Charlie

 

edit-  The 4 in T4 prefix refers to him being part of the recruitment of Kitchener's 4th Army (actually the redesignation of the 5th when the original 4th was broken up April 1915). As I said earlier I believe he volunteered about the 10th March 1915, based on close ASC service numbers that are fortunate enough to have surviving service records.

 

edit **  I see 1911 Census he was 'house boy' although his father was a farm labourer. Perhaps from his rural upbringing he gained experience working with horses.

Edited 24 May , 2020 by charlie962

[Coldstreamer]

could well have been attached to and working with the Guards not actually in the regiment

[Gardenerbill]

Without a service record it is difficult to research an ASC man because you usually don't know which company they were in, however you can get an idea of what they might have done. First as per the post by Charlie962 looking at near numbers can tell you when the soldier enlisted in this case March 1915. He was not entitled to a 14/15 Star so he did not go overseas until 1916 or later therefore he must have spent at least the first 9 months of his service on home duty. I think therefore we can assume he arrived in Salonika in the early months of 1916. There were 6 divisions on the Salonika front by the end of 1916, his HT Company may have arrived with one of these; 3 can be discounted as they arrived at the end of 1915 and one in December 1916. The other two 26th and 27th Divisions completed disembarkation in Salonika by the end of February 1916, but both these division had served in France in 1915 so again unlikely he arrived with them otherwise he would have been entitled to the 14/15 Star. That leaves two possibilities; he arrived with a group of replacements and was allocated to one of the companies already there or he arrived with a newly formed HT company. Initially his company would have been operating around Salonika until the BSF moved up country and the new line was established in the summer of 1916. Eventually the British sector was created and divided into two sections; XII Corps to the west from the river Varda to head of Hodza valley east of Lake Doiran and XVI Corps to the east in the Struma Valley. The XII Corps sector was primarily supplied by rail on the Salonika to Constantinople line which ran due north from Salonika to rail heads such as Kukus where the HT and MT companies would provide the final link in the supply chain. XVI corps was supplied via the Seres road which ran north east from Salonika to the Struma valley with the HT and MT companies operating from the various depots along this road. Dvr Ashmore's company could have operated in either sector, supplying infantry, artillery, engineers, RAMC etc. with supplies, equipment, materials and ammunition.

 

As PRC said in post #15 there was an on-going transfer of fit ASC to the infantry, in his case the KRRC who were in 26th Division, so it is possible that he was in an HT company supplying that division on the Struma valley front.

 

If you want to find out more about the Salonika campaign I can recommend 'Under the Devil's Eye' Alan Wakefield & Simon Moody, which covers the role of the British Army on the Salonika front.

[charlie962]

18 hours ago, charlie962 said:

We have ditched the Guards story I hope!

If you read the War Diary linked above, I note that on the 7th Nov 1918, the day preceding Ashmore's wounding, there are numerous references to attacking by the Advanced Guard (Diary's capitals) of the Batallion under enemy MG fire. It could well be that this is the source of the story. Anyway well worth reading the diary.

 

1 hour ago, Gardenerbill said:

Without a service record it is difficult to research an ASC man because you usually don't know which company they were in, however you can get an idea of what they might have done.

Thanks for that detailed response.

 

Charlie