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Helen91

Sydney Ashmore 45520

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Helen91

Hi i am wondering if anyone can give or find any information for me on Sydney Ashmore.
no. 45520 T4/061949

Kings royal Rifles
Army Service corps
Rank Driver

We have just recently been handed down his medal through the family. Unfortunately i don't have any dates of birth and death. He had a daughter called Mavis Ashmore (1928-2019)  and another Esme Ashmore.  Wife called Freda  however not sure on her maiden name.He was originally from Suffolk.

He would be my Husbands Great Grandfather. 

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alf mcm

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Helen91

German Blitzkrieg tactics in the spring 1940 invasion of France were so effective that by the 22 May it was clear that Calais was about to be surrounded. Alongside the French defenders stood the British 30th Infantry Brigade, in which the 1st Battalion The Rifle Brigade, the 2nd Battalion The King’s Royal Rifle Corps and the 1st Battalion The Queen Victoria’s Rifles were its principal units. The following message was passed from London to their Brigade Commander: “The eyes of the Empire are upon the defence of Calais and His Majesty’s Government is confident that you and your gallant Regiments will perform an exploit worthy of the British name”. Later the Prime Minister Winston Churchill sent the following message: “Every hour you continue to exist is of the greatest help to the BEF. Have greatest possible admiration for your splendid stand. Evacuation will not (repeat not) take place, and craft required for above purpose are to return to Dover”. The Green Jackets were alone and surrounded. For days they fought on. Undeterred by the massive odds against them, small groups of exhausted Riflemen, commanded by equally exhausted junior officers and NCOS, continued to hold doggedly to their positions. On the 26th May the Green Jackets made their last stand and by 1630 hours the final positions were overrun by the Germans. The defence of Calais was, by any standards, heroic. Against a backdrop of chaos, confusion and uncertainty, abandoned, outnumbered and outgunned and with their backs against the sea, the British with three battalions of Green Jackets at their core alongside 800 valiant Frenchmen, held a German panzer division at bay for the best part of three days. This three day delay was the “crux” as Churchill was to describe, to the successful evacuation of the BEF from Dunkirk. Churchill added that by their last stand at Calais, the Green Jackets had “added another glorious page to the glories of The Light Division.”


Just seen this dont know if this would be the same?


 

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mancpal

The medal you have should be either a silver disc (BWM) or yellow/gold (VM). He didn't qualify for either the '14 or 14-15 meaning that he didn't serve overseas before 1916. Interestingly his Medal Roll Index Card has MM (Military Medal) on it but this has been crossed out . I take this as a clerical error though there is a small chance that he could have a second card detailing the MM award if it existed.

 

Simon

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charlie962
Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, mancpal said:

Interestingly his Medal Roll Index Card has MM (Military Medal) on it but this has been crossed out . I take this as a clerical error though there is a small chance that he could have a second card detailing the MM award if it existed.

There is indeed a MM card for Stephen Sidney Ashmore 45520 4th KRRC France

Appears in London Gazette of 23/7/1919

Edited by charlie962

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Helen91
7 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

There is indeed a MM card for Stephen Sidney Ashmore 45520 4th KRRC France

Yes ive seen both cards not sure what KRRC stands for.

I have attached the medal we have. Would you be able to tell me why he would have been given it and possible war?

ashmore.jpg

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charlie962
Posted (edited)

That is the British War Medal of WW1

 

KRRC is the King's Royal Rifle Corps. He was in the 4th Battalion.

Edited by charlie962

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mancpal

Failed to find the card (again not altogether surprising). The medal you have is the British War Medal, one of the 3 common service medals from WW1. His MM is different altogether, it was awarded for bravery.

 

Simon

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Helen91
2 minutes ago, mancpal said:

Failed to find the card (again not altogether surprising). The medal you have is the British War Medal, one of the 3 common service medals from WW1. His MM is different altogether, it was awarded for bravery.

 

Simon

So he could possibily have been awarded 2 medals then dependant on the error?

Would i be right in thinking he would have been at Calais

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charlie962
Posted (edited)

He would have had the British War Medal (BWM) and the Victory Medal (VM) for the campaign in France but in front of those goes the Military Medal,(MM)  for Bravery. One of the Forum Pals may yet identify the action for which it was awarded ?

 

Charlie

Edited by charlie962

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PRC
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Helen91 said:

He was originally from Suffolk.

 

The birth of a Sidney Charles Ashmore was registered with the Civil Authorities in the Freebridge Lynn District of Norfolk in the April to June quarter of 1897. I can't find any likely candidates for Suffolk. The death of a Sydney Charles Ashmore born 16th April 1897 was recorded in the Cleveland District of Yorkshire in the April to June quarter of 1976. There is no obvious Civil Probate for him.

 

Does that sound like the right man?

 

The 1901 and 1911 Census of England & Wales both show him as born Hillington, Norfolk, although in 1901 the family were at the next village of Congham, before moving back by 1911 to Hillington. He was recorded as Sydney & "Sidny" respectively - all the spellings of his first name are as shown in the relevant document.

 

A brief guide to the Great War Service Medals can be read here https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/how-to-research-a-soldier/campaign-medal-records/the-british-campaign-medals-for-the-great-war/

And an introduction to the King's Royal Rifle Corps here: https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/kings-royal-rifle-corps/

 

Citations for Military Medals haven't survived and although his award is very likely to appear in the London Gazette, that won't have details either. Sometimes it's possible to get an idea from the Battalion War Diary. Most likely source will be local papers.

 

The KRRC were in action at Calais in WW2 and unless he stayed in the Army throughout as a career soldier it's very unlikely he saw frontline service in the later war.

 

Hope that helps

Peter

Edited by PRC
Typo

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PRC

Military Medal for Sydney is a 1919 award so likely to be for general good service rather than one specific deed. Very little likelihood of finding anything in the War Diary. It appeared in the Supplement to the edition of the London Gazette dated 23rd July 1919.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/31469/supplement/9381/data.pdf

Hillington has been identified as his home address, so almost certainly the same man as the birth and census details above.

 

Unfortunately that area is covered by the Kings Lynn newspapers which I haven't even started on so I can't tell you if he gets a mention.

 

Cheers,

Peter

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Helen91
11 minutes ago, PRC said:

 

The birth of a Sidney Charles Ashmore was registered with the Civil Authorities in the Freebridge Lynn District of Norfolk in the April to June quarter of 1897. I can't find any likely candidates for Suffolk. The death of a Sydney Charles Ashmore born 16th April 1897 was recorded in the Cleveland District of Yorkshire in the April to June quarter of 1976. There is no obvious Civil Probate for him.

 

Does that sound like the right man?

 

The 1901 and 1911 Census of England & Wales both shown him as born Hillington, Norfolk, although in 1901 the family were at the next village of Congham, before moving back by 1911 to Hillington. He was recorded as Sydney & "Sidny" respectively - all the spellings of his first name are as shown in the relevant document.

 

A brief guide to the Great War Service Medals can be read here https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/how-to-research-a-soldier/campaign-medal-records/the-british-campaign-medals-for-the-great-war/

And an introduction to the King's Royal Rifle Corps here: https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/kings-royal-rifle-corps/

 

Citations for Military Medals haven't survived and although his award is very likely to appear in the London Gazette, that won't have details either. Sometimes it's possible to get an idea from the Battalion War Diary. Most likely source will be local papers.

 

The KRRC were in action at Calais in WW2 and unless he stayed in the Army throughout as a career soldier it's very unlikely he saw frontline service in the later war.

 

Hope that helps

Peter

Hi that does sounds like the right man with everything adding up

Married 1924 guisborough
Child Mavis 1928 
1939 register  although i can only see partly says Loftus.  Which is where most of the Lindsey family are currently. Mavis lived there until she passed away last year (his daughter).

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charlie962
Posted (edited)

I think he started service in the Army Service Corps c 10th March 1915.

He transferred compulsorily to the KRRC in April 1918.

I think he would have been serving with the ASC in Salonika in 1916 then transferred across to 4th KRRC just before they left Salonika to go to France.

 

So his MM would be won with the 4th KRRC in the last months of the war.

 

Charlie

 

edit - this is based on looking at similar service numbers. See in particular the surviving Service Record for 45519 Edwin Dean who transferred in 1918 from ASC to 4th KRRC.

Edited by charlie962

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PRC
Posted (edited)
24 minutes ago, Helen91 said:

Hi that does sounds like the right man with everything adding up

 

Then your husbands' great grandfather must be spinning in his grave. Telling a Norfolk man that he's a softie southerner is like telling a Yorkshireman he's a Lancastrian:)

 

Sidneys' mothers' maiden name was Page. On the 1911 Census of England & Wales, parents David, (aged 40, a Farm Labourer, born West Raynham, Norfolk) and Emma, (aged 37, born Hillington), state they have been married 15 years and the marriage has produced three children, all then still alive, and also all still living with them. Along with "Sidny", then working as a Houseboy, the other two were George, (11, born Congham) and Grace, (6, born Hillington).

 

On the 1915 edition of the Norfolk Register of Electors, David Ashmore is recorded as eligible to vote in Parliamentary, County Council and Parish elections because he was the (male) householder of a dwelling house at Lynn Road, Hillington.

 

It's not clear from the Medal Index Card for Sidney Ashmore but given the lateness of the award of his Military Medal it would seem he started his service with the Army Service Corps and finished up with the King's Royal Rifle Corps, probably during one of the combing out exercises that regularly took place from 1916 onwards as the British Army struggled to maintain the strength of front line units.  The Service Medal Roll for his Victory Medal & British War Medal, (on Ancestry), should confirm whether the ASC or KRRC issued his medals.

 

Cheers,

Peter

Edited by PRC
Typo

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charlie962
Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, PRC said:

It's not clear from the Medal Index Card for Sidney Ashmore but given the lateness of the award of his Military Medal it would seem he started his service with the Army Service Corps and finished up with the King's Royal Rifle Corps, probably during one of the combing out exercises that regularly took place from 1916 onwards as the British Army struggled to maintain the strength of front line units.  The Service Medal Roll for his Victory Medal & British War Medal, (on Ancestry), should confirm whether the ASC or KRRC issued his medals.

see my edited post just before yours !!  This could be built on further.

 

Charlie

Edited by charlie962

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charlie962

The War Diary for 4th KRRC for those last months of the war 1918 is here on Ancestry

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Helen91
11 minutes ago, PRC said:

 

Then your husbands' great grandfather must be spinning in his grave. Telling a Norfolk man that he's a softie southerner is like telling a Yorkshireman he's a Lancastrian:)

 

Sidneys' mothers' maiden name was Page. On the 1911 Census of England & Wales, parents David, (aged 40, a Farm Labourer, born West Raynham, Norfolk) and Emma, (aged 37, born Hillington), state they have been married 15 years and the marriage has produced three children, all then still alive, and also all still living with them. Along with "Sidny", then working as a Houseboy, the other two were George, (11, born Congham) and Grace, (6, born Hillington).

 

On the 1915 edition of the Norfolk Register of Electors, David Ashmore is recorded as eligible to vote in Parliamentary, County Council and Parish elections because he was the (male) householder of a dwelling house at Lynn Road, Hillington.

 

It's not clear from the Medal Index Card for Sidney Ashmore but given the lateness of the award of his Military Medal it would seem he started his service with the Army Service Corps and finished up with the King's Royal Rifle Corps, probably during one of the combing out exercises that regularly took place from 1916 onwards as the British Army struggled to maintain the strength of front line units.  The Service Medal Roll for his Victory Medal & British War Medal, (on Ancestry), should confirm whether the ASC or KRRC issued his medals.

 

Cheers,

Peter

Thank you! So much information to take in!

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sadbrewer

He was in the War Office Casualty list of 31st December 1918 as wounded.

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charlie962

The WarDiary I linked has detailed casualty lists and shows Ashmore was wounded on 8/11/18 ie 3 days before the war ended. The Bn experienced heavy fighting and casualties in the last weeks of the war. I suspect Ashmore earned his MM on the day he was wounded.

 

Charlie

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Helen91
2 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

The WarDiary I linked has detailed casualty lists and shows Ashmore was wounded on 8/11/18 ie 3 days before the war ended. The Bn experienced heavy fighting and casualties in the last weeks of the war. I suspect Ashmore earned his MM on the day he was wounded.

 

Charlie

Any chance you could get any pictures of this?

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charlie962
Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, Helen91 said:

Any chance you could get any pictures of this?

You are not allowed to ask this ! If you are not a subscriber to Ancestry you can, at the moment, get free downloads direct from National Archives. You just have to sign on.

I will just get you the link.....here

Edited by charlie962

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Helen91
1 minute ago, PRC said:

War diaries are currently free to download from the National Archive - you just need to register for an account.

 

Cheers,

Peter

Thank you didnt know this.

2 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

You are not allowed to ask this ! If you are not a subscriber to Ancestry you can, at the moment, get free downloads direct from National Archives. You just have to sign on.

I will just get you the link.....

Thank you. Sorry i didnt know you were able to download them.

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charlie962

See the link in post 22

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Helen91
14 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

See the link in post 22

Sorry nothings coming up. I have just registered.

16 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

See the link in post 22

Done it sorry!

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