Army Service Corps Private George Ezra Sparkes

[Sparky660]

Hello All, this is my first time posting and hope that I'm not breaking any forum rules.

 

I have been looking for some information about my Great Grandfather and his military service. My Grandfather was orphaned and he was told that it was because his father was killed in the war. After doing some research it looks as if he survived and was discharged, indicated be his Medal Cards. Are there any other resources other than Ancestry to find any further records? Could anyone shed some light on his Battalion, Regimental War Diaries, more service records?

[charlie962]

Welcome Sparky

 

You will note that he was discharged KR -Kings Regulations para 392 xxva  ie 'services no longer required,not having suffered impairment in service'.

 

Also that his medals were returned- Kings Regulations 1912 para 1743 means that for 10 years if they remained unclaimed they would be destroyed. There is no note of any subsequent claim by next of kin or even himself. He either disappeared or died.

 

Google both those paras and you come up with several threads on this forum that explain.

 

Charlie

 

just a note that he was born 2/8/93 Aylston, Leicester. It may help others searching.      PS when was your grandfather born ?

Edited 22 May , 2020 by charlie962

[Sparky660]

Thanks for the quick response Charlie. I had Googled the para 392 and that's how I came to the conclusion that he was discharged. I didn't however know that KR 1912 para 1743 meant that they remained unclaimed.

 

Am I correct that he was in active service unit 21.2.20?

[charlie962]

Whilst his service record doesn't survive, that of M2/183165 Hubert Harry Spooner (also an a/sgt) does. It can help identify his initial joining and posting but should not be assumed to follow a subsequent similar course.

 

Mobilised 2/6/16 he was posted to Grace Grove Park 3/6/16

 

I'm not absolutely sure about that 1920 date ?

 

Charlie

Edited 23 May , 2020 by charlie962

[Sparky660]

10 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

just a note that he was born 2/8/93 Leicester. It may help others searching.      PS when was your grandfather born ?

I haven't been able to nail that down yet, I was able to find his marriage certificate and birth certificates of his children but very little on him. I know I am looking for the correct person as the I found his Regimental Number on an Absent list, the address corresponded with last child's birth certificate.

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Hi Sparky,

Sadly it was not uncommon for men to abandon their families after the end of the Great War, and making a clean break.

I presume you have seen that his name appears in an Ancestry Public Member Tree and that you can confirm the facts about him are correct?

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/167603094/person/362174057675/facts

 

[Sparky660]

2 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

Hi Sparky,

Sadly it was not uncommon for men to abandon their families after the end of the Great War, and making a clean break.

I presume you have seen that his name appears in an Ancestry Public Member Tree and that you can confirm the facts about him are correct?

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/167603094/person/362174057675/facts

 

I can, there was a Stevens that had a DNA match to me and the only person it could be was through George Ezra Sparkes. It looks like he tried to make a clean break from a few women in his lifetime.

[PRC]

59 minutes ago, Sparky660 said:

Hello All, this is my first time posting and hope that I'm not breaking any forum rules.

 

Hi and welcome to the forum.

 

In terms of forum rules can you edit your opening post to credit the source of your images and then hopefully the admins will let it slide

 

I see you have access to Ancestry. As well as service records for men with nearby service numbers, if they have survived, another potential source for enlistment dates is the Silver War Badge Rolls. These badges were issued to men who were honourably discharged during the war or discharged as a result of wounds\ sickness after it. The Roll at a minimum should show date of enlistment as well as discharge. A quick check of men with nearby service numbers shows the following received the SWB.

 

M2/183168 David Simpson

M2/183178 James Burrows

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

[Gardenerbill]

Welcome to the forum Sparky660,

I am sure you are aware of this but just in case M2 prefix on aservice number is Mechanical Transport so Pte Sparkes would have joined an MT Company as a fitter, mechanic, wheeler or possibly a driver, it is wroth seeing if you can find him on the 1911 Census, if he was of working age at the time this should tell you what his occupation was and may indicate what his role in the ASC was.

 

9 hours ago, charlie962 said:

Mobilised 2/6/16 he was posted to Grace Park 3/6/16

 

Hi charlie I assume this was a spellcheck issue, but it should be Grove Park the main ASC Mechanical Transport depot in south London.

 

8 hours ago, PRC said:

In terms of forum rules can you edit your opening post to credit the source of your images and then hopefully the admins will let it slide

 

In terms of forum rules medal index cards are free to view so no copyright issue there. Medal rolls are not but the mods don't normally take issue with occasional posting of these.

 

 

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

9 hours ago, Sparky660 said:

I can, there was a Stevens that had a DNA match to me and the only person it could be was through George Ezra Sparkes. It looks like he tried to make a clean break from a few women in his lifetime.

I see that George 'Stevens'  , General Engineer, in the 1939 Register had a date of birth of Ausust 2nd 1891.

The family next door were Sparkes.

Edited 23 May , 2020 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[Michelle Young]

Please acknowledge the source of the posted documents as per forum rules.

Michelle 

[PRC]

2 hours ago, Gardenerbill said:

In terms of forum rules medal index cards are free to view so no copyright issue there. Medal rolls are not but the mods don't normally take issue with occasional posting of these.

 

For avoidance of doubt - free to view is not the same as free of copyright. Would the rights holder pursue the matter through the court - very, very unlikely - but other legal opinions are available.

 

I didn't think it worthwhile qualifying the message by saying acknowledge one document and not the other - particularly as they almost certainly came from the same source.

 

Considering the Forum wide notice about posting TNA sourced documents over the last few days and that Mods have been removing potentially copyrighted images from threads - understandable but making it harder for everyone to respond, especially those who don't subscribe to the likes of Ancestry, FindMyPast & Fold3 - it seems image rights are in the forefront of their minds at the moment, so better safe than sorry.

 

Cheers,

Peter

[Gardenerbill]

11 minutes ago, PRC said:

 

For avoidance of doubt - free to view is not the same as free of copyright. Would the rights holder pursue the matter through the court - very, very unlikely - but other legal opinions are available.

 

I didn't think it worthwhile qualifying the message by saying acknowledge one document and not the other - particularly as they almost certainly came from the same source.

 

Considering the Forum wide notice about posting TNA sourced documents over the last few days and that Mods have been removing potentially copyrighted images from threads - understandable but making it harder for everyone to respond, especially those who don't subscribe to the likes of Ancestry, FindMyPast & Fold3 - it seems image rights are in the forefront of their minds at the moment, so better safe than sorry.

 

Cheers,

Peter

I think Michelle has covered this.

[charlie962]

12 hours ago, PRC said:

The Roll at a minimum should show date of enlistment as well as discharge

The problem with using the SWB Roll is that the enlistment dates are sometimes the attestation dates, followed by immediate trf to Reserve. I am assuming the Service number is allocated when they are subsequently Mobilized. This seems correct to me because some of the near numbers attested Dec 1915 and some didn't but all mobilized (or enlisted without being trf'd to Reserve) end May start June 1916.

 

The example I gave for Spooner above was the mobilization date. He had previously attested Dec 1915 and been transferred to Reserve. Looking at Service Records for other near numbers, the Mobilization date is end May/beginning June 1916. Incidently I suggest Grace Park that I noted should read Grove Park !

 

Charlie

Edited 23 May , 2020 by charlie962

[PRC]

Thanks for checking Charlie - I was going to raise the prospect of them being Derby Scheme men depending on what the response was to the suggested line of enquiry. George seemed too young to have been a May 1916 mobilisation even if he was married by then, but he or his employer could have applied for a deferral and gone late. Was Spooner a married man in his mid to late thirties at the time he reported to Grove Park or is there any evidence he too was deferred.

 

Sparky660 - useful introduction to the Derby Scheme here https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/enlisting-into-the-army/the-group-scheme-derby-scheme/

 

3 hours ago, Gardenerbill said:

if you can find him on the 1911 Census, if he was of working age at the time this should tell you what his occupation was and may indicate what his role in the ASC was.

 

The 18 year old George Ezra Sparkes, born "Lester", was working as a Mechanic in a Worsted Mill when he was recorded as a Boarder in a household at Brick Street, Flanshaw, Wakefield, Yorkshire. The head of the household, William Thornton, was a Worsted Spinning Overlooker. OP says he has the marriage certificate so hopefully Georges' stated occupation on that will be closer to what he was doing at the time of mobilisation.

 

Cheers,

Peter

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

His number is only 4000 after my grandfather who attested December 11th 1915  and joined at Grove Park on May 25th 1916.

[charlie962]

here are some near numbers:

 

M2/183139 Ernest Walter Andrews Attest 26/11/15 Reserve 27/11 Mobil 24/5/16 joined GrovePark 29/5/16 aged 29 married no children

M2/183165 Hubert Harry Spooner  Attest 13/11/15 reserve 14/11  Mobilized 2/6/16 aged 33 married, 2 children

M2/183181 Robert Murray Byers  enlist 6/12/15 (per SWB), but to Reserve then Mobilized 30/5/16 aged 38 married, 2 children

M2/183194 Harry Cox       attested 30/5/16  aged 33 married 2 children

[PRC]

The Long, Long Trail page on the Derby Scheme shows the youngest group mobilised on the 29th May 1916 were married men born 1888, (Group 33), so circa 37/38 years old. If the right George Ezra has been identified from the Civil record and he was already married, then he should have been in Group 28 - married men born 1893 - who were mobilised on the 7th April 1916. On the face of it looks like three out of the four listed above, as well as George, must have been subject to a deferral ganted by their local tribunal.

 

Cheers,

Peter

[charlie962]

Peter, I could be a year off with the ages as I hurriedly back-dated from discharge age or whatever. Does that throw your calcs ?

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

11 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

Peter, I could be a year off with the ages as I hurriedly back-dated from discharge age or whatever. Does that throw your calcs ?

Births Sep 1893   (>99%)
Sparkes	George Ezra		Leicester	7a	313

[charlie962]

Dai, I meant ages for near service numbers. I've already quoted George Ezra's dob which I got from the School Registers and is thus probably his true dob 2/8/1893. Charlie

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Just now, charlie962 said:

Dai, I meant ages for near service numbers. I've already quoted George Ezra's dob which I got from the School Registers and is thus probably his true dob 2/8/1893. Charlie

Apologies.

[PRC]

25 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

Peter, I could be a year off with the ages as I hurriedly back-dated from discharge age or whatever. Does that throw your calcs ?

 

Charlie,

 

Ignore me - I'm having a senior moment. The men born 1888 would have 27/28 at the time of mobilisation. By that yardstick only George Ezra Sparkes would appear to be a late arrival - if he was the one born 1893.

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

 

[Darren Stevens]

Hi All,

I'm the researcher who is the DNA link that Bob (Sparky660) speaks about. I have just received Georges birth certificate and his birthdate is indeed 2nd August 1893. At the beginning of this discussion how did charlie962 know that date?

 

My research suggests he was in India, either with the ASCorp before discharge or returned there after discharge OR can anyone tell me was soldiers always discharged back at home location (ie UK) or is it possible they where discharged at their last posting? (if that was India) There is a very strong DNA match to me with the son of someone born 1921 in India, hence the reason i think he was in India. He then rocked back up in East London (where he had left his first wife and 3 children, possibly why he changed his name to Stevens) in the mid 1920's as George Stevens, married my nan in 1936 and had my dad in 1942..... 

 

The 1939 register shows him living with my nan, my 3 baby uncles and my nans mum, all living next door to his cousin Percy Sparkes. My family until 3 months ago had never heard the name Sparkes (he kept that a complete sectret)........ 

 

[charlie962]

29 minutes ago, Darren Stevens said:

how did charlie962 know that date?

see post 21.

 

Charlie

29 minutes ago, Darren Stevens said:

is it possible they where discharged at their last posting? (if that was India)

I think that is quite possible.

 

Charlie