Snake buckle id

[Guest]

Hello I was wondering if anyone can help with this buckle. Does anyone know if certain battalions had their own marked buckles or is this a pre or post WW1 item? 
 

thank you in advance  

[depaor01]

As far as I know snake buckles were mostly police issue but I have seen them in WWI use. Someone more knowledgeable should be along soon...

[mark holden]

4 minutes ago, depaor01 said:

As far as I know snake buckles were mostly police issue but I have seen them in WWI use. Someone more knowledgeable should be along soon...

Snake buckles were used on the waist belt of the 1914 Pattern Infantry Equipment but I don't believe that the buckle shown is from that belt . 

[FROGSMILE]

From a military viewpoint snake buckles actually go back to the Napoleonic era as a simple but adaptable fastener for the waist belt of rifle regiments.  Although long in use for civilian belts it became so associated with rifles units that when the Slade-Wallace equipment was devised (by the two army officers after whom it was named) the black, rifles variant of the equipment was fitted with the by then traditional snake buckle.  It was also adopted in Canada, whose militia had enthusiastically raised rifles units ever since the American Revolution, for their Oliver equipment.  Similarly, when the 1914 leather equipment was introduced as a stop gap the faithful snake buckle was easily ramped up for mass production and readily adapted for use.

Edited 20 May , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Guest]

Thank you for the replies. However I was wondering about this buckle with embossed XIII on it. Would it be for a specific battalion or regiment as I only see plain snake buckles. 

[FROGSMILE]

58 minutes ago, RJG said:

Thank you for the replies. However I was wondering about this buckle with embossed XIII on it. Would it be for a specific battalion or regiment as I only see plain snake buckles. 

I’ve never seen one like it before, but I’m fairly sure it’s not connected with a regular  army unit.

The Volunteer Rifle Corps largely did their own thing with regards to uniform and retained some individualism when they were made ‘Volunteer Battalions’ (VB) in the decade after 1881.  It might well have provenance from a unit of Rifle Volunteers with a precedence number of 13.  However the numbering was within counties rather than across the rifle volunteer movement as a whole and so there were several units numbered 13.  One example would be the 13th Middlesex (Queen's) Volunteer Rifle Corps (Westminster).  See enclosed image. 

Edited 21 May , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Dave1418]

There are a variety of snake buckles, some with one head and a tail, some double headed. The point in the centre of the S sometimes has a band and leave others a different design. There are heads that clearly look like a snake and others that look like a swan. The bodies may also have scales cast into them.

The original rifles regiments were in brass with squared off shoulders later they were either polished steel or nickel coated. They also have lots of use with police services. They’re a huge subject 

[FROGSMILE]

15 minutes ago, Dave1418 said:

There are a variety of snake buckles, some with one head and a tail, some double headed. The point in the centre of the S sometimes has a band and leave others a different design. There are heads that clearly look like a snake and others that look like a swan. The bodies may also have scales cast into them.

The original rifles regiments were in brass with squared off shoulders later they were either polished steel or nickel coated. They also have lots of use with police services. They’re a huge subject 

Yes, I agree totally. The key feature with this one though is the embossed XIII, which should really be identifiable with some in depth research.

Edited 26 May , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[RNCVR]

Been following this topic with interest. Noted the XIII.

 

Any speculation on XIII Froggie?

 

Best....Bryan

[FROGSMILE]

44 minutes ago, RNCVR said:

Been following this topic with interest. Noted the XIII.

 

Any speculation on XIII Froggie?

 

Best....Bryan

Yes, I’ve explained in post #6 above.  That is by far the most likely scenario I believe.  A researcher would need to examine each County’s VRC and see how many had a 13th Corps. Then it’s a matter of researching those units’ insignia and accoutrements.

Edited 26 May , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[RNCVR]

Thanks Froggie!

[HERITAGE PLUS]

Quote

 A researcher would need to examine each County’s VRC and see how many had a 13th Corps

 

32 Counties had a 13th RVC Corps:

 

Aberdeen, Argyll, Ayrshire, Berkshire, Cheshire, Cornwall, Derbyshire, Devon, Dumbartonshire, Durham, Essex, Glamorgan, Hampshire, Hertfordshire, Kent, Lanark, Lancashire, Lincolnshire, Middlesex, Norfolk, Perthshire, Renfrew, Shropshire, Somerset, Staffordshire, Stirlingshire, Suffolk, Surrey, Wiltshire, Worcestershire and North Yorkshire

 

4 Counties had a 13th Artillery VC Corps:

 

Cornwall, Kent, Lanark and Lancashire

 

I can supply the names of the towns where these units were located if required.

 

Dave

 

Edited 26 May , 2020 by HERITAGE PLUS

[FROGSMILE]

On 26/05/2020 at 22:22, HERITAGE PLUS said:

 

32 Counties had a 13th RVC Corps:

 

Aberdeen, Argyll, Ayrshire, Berkshire, Cheshire, Cornwall, Derbyshire, Devon, Dumbartonshire, Durham, Essex, Glamorgan, Hampshire, Hertfordshire, Kent, Lanark, Lancashire, Lincolnshire, Middlesex, Norfolk, Perthshire, Renfrew, Shropshire, Somerset, Staffordshire, Stirlingshire, Suffolk, Surrey, Wiltshire, Worcestershire and North Yorkshire

 

4 Counties had a 13th Artillery VC Corps:

 

Cornwall, Kent, Lanark and Lancashire

 

I can supply the names of the towns where these units were located if required.

 

Dave

 

It’s very kind of you to look up and lay that information out Dave.

 

 It’s up to the inquirer now to carry out the hard yards of research into those units and the insignia and accoutrements that they wore.  It’s a highly specialised area, as these individual ‘corps’ within the Counties were very small, and even where their records have been preserved (usually in County or Regional libraries) not all the full details of uniform were necessarily recorded.  In the late 1880s they became volunteer battalions (VB) of the regular infantry regiments and generally began to adopt most of the style of their new parent unit.

Edited 29 May , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[HERITAGE PLUS]

Thanks Frogsmile

 

My interest in the RVC and VB comes from, years  ago,  running my local museum, part of which had been the armoury of the local RVC (4th Wilts) which became 'B' Company. 2VB, Wiltshire Regiment.

 

Dave

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, HERITAGE PLUS said:

Thanks Frogsmile

 

My interest in the RVC and VB comes from, years  ago,  running my local museum, part of which had been the armoury of the local RVC (4th Wilts) which became 'B' Company. 2VB, Wiltshire Regiment.

 

Dave

Yes, they are interesting units and it’s always been a bit of a source of frustration to me that whereas a properly detailed record was made of all the uniform details of RV corps in Scotland (Col Grierson), there is no equivalent for England and Wales.  As a result much is unknown regarding the pre-VB period.

Edited 29 May , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Provost]

On 26/05/2020 at 22:22, HERITAGE PLUS said:

 

32 Counties had a 13th RVC Corps:

 

Aberdeen, Argyll, Ayrshire, Berkshire, Cheshire, Cornwall, Derbyshire, Devon, Dumbartonshire, Durham, Essex, Glamorgan, Hampshire, Hertfordshire, Kent, Lanark, Lancashire, Lincolnshire, Middlesex, Norfolk, Perthshire, Renfrew, Shropshire, Somerset, Staffordshire, Stirlingshire, Suffolk, Surrey, Wiltshire, Worcestershire and North Yorkshire

 

4 Counties had a 13th Artillery VC Corps:

 

Cornwall, Kent, Lanark and Lancashire

 

I can supply the names of the towns where these units were located if required.

 

Dave

 

You can also add Sussex to the list of Counties - the 13th Sussex RVC was based at Hurstpierpoint north of Brighton.

 

Cheers,

 

Richard

[HERITAGE PLUS]

Thanks Richard I somehow missed that when I collated my list.

 

Dave