Two brothers, did they both serve on the same ship HMS Foyle?

[Tawhiri]

My wife's great-grandfather, James John Herbert, joined the Royal Navy as a seaman in 1904 on a 12 year engagement, and was lost on 15 March 1917 when HMS Foyle was mined in the Strait of Dover, having been with the ship for less than three weeks. With time on my hands at the moment I have been doing a little more research into my wife's side of the family, and one of the surprises that it has thrown up is that James' younger brother, Harry Charles Herbert also joined the Royal Navy, this time in 1909 as a stoker, also on a 12 year engagement.

 

I have a basic understanding of how to read the ships served in column in a service record, but in this case Harry's record seems to indicate that he too served in HMS Foyle from November 1914 to January 1917, only leaving the ship on 10 January 1917. His older brother then arrived on the ship on 27 February 1917, and was then lost less than three weeks later when HMS Foyle's bow was blown off after hitting a mine. Have I got my interpretation of both their service records correct, and how common would it be for two brothers to actually serve on the same ship at the same time? Although one brother was lost, it would appear that if Harry's transfer had been delayed both might have been lost at the same time. He did see out the end of his engagement, although it looks as though he subsequently died at the relatively young age of 38 in 1928.

 

 

 

[RNCVR]

Yes, you seem to have their dates correct for HMS Foyle.

They initially just missed each other on HMS St George as well --  James  from 7 Apl '11 to 28 Jun '12, & Harry from 19 Nov '12 to 2 Nov '14. However James returned to St George from 6 July '12 to 28 Dec '14. so they were together on her for almost 2 yrs.

 

I cannot say how common it was for brothers to serve on same ship but have definitely known of father son combinations on the same ship during 1WW.

Edited 20 May , 2020 by RNCVR

[Tawhiri]

RNCVR, thank you for confirming that.

 

I had missed the earlier coming together on HMS St George, HMS Foyle was a little easier to pick out at first glance. It seems that at the time they were on HMS St George, she was a depot ship for one or more destroyer flotillas. Would they have been assigned to a specific destroyer in the flotilla, or would they have just been assigned to the flotilla, and moved between ships as necessary?

[RNCVR]

Usually if they are on a smaller ship attached to the main Depot ship its name is in (    ) beside the depot ship.

You can see that for Harry with Foyle & Ness within (   ) beside the Depot ships Leander, Vivid, & Wallington.

They might have been Ship's company for St George, altho assigned as a Depot ship she still carried her normal (or fairly normal) ship' s company .

 

For James it says - "Vivid for Foyle", meaning Vivid was the accounting base for Foyle.

 

Destroyers normally did not carry Writers, Cooks, Medics & other essential ratings, these were carried on the Depot ship to accommodate the destroyer ratings when they were not out on patrol. Those various ratings lived on the Depot ships full time. Destroyer rating's records were also kept & maintained by the Depot ship staff for their time assigned to that particular Depot ship.

 

If they moved to another ship within that Depot ship then a new entry would be commenced in his Record with the new ship & date he was drafted to that ship. Same if he moved to another Depot ship.

 

Best wishes,

Bryan

[Tawhiri]

Bryan

 

Thank you for that very helpful explanation. I must confess I hadn’t realized that depot ships still retained a more or less complete ship’s company. Up until now I had just thought of them as hulks that lent their name to a base for administrative purposes.
 

All the best

 

Craig

[RNCVR]

Craig, all Depot ships were not created equal - St George (Cruiser) was a sea going depot ship & thus carried pretty much a full crew plus what ever additional ratings that were required to maintain their attached Destroyers.

Depot ships ashore or 'hulked' that were unfit to go to sea carried a reduced complement, mostly older ratings nearing end of their service or pensioners still on extended service for some reason or another. Ratings were drafted to those Depot ships to await their next draft.  

 

Some Depot ships were training schools - ie: Excellent, Vernon, Defiance, Britannia - originally old wooden wall moored hulks( ex 1st or 2nd rate ships of the line) no longer fit for sea. Eventually (around turn of 18th, 19th C)

these Depot ships were moved to shore based quarters, as were the main Port depots - Chatham, Portsmouth, 

Plymouth.

 

Hope this brief explanation helps you,

 

Best wishes,

Bryan

[Tawhiri]

Bryan

 

That was very useful, thank you. One of the things that had been puzzling me when looking at James' record earlier was why he had apparently spent so much time ashore at a depot, when the answer was that he was on a sea-going Depot ship as part of the regular crew. I did wonder whether the brief gap in his service on HMS St George in 1912 was linked to his wedding, but that took place in August 1912, so after he started his second stint on the ship. Somewhere in the family there is a photograph of him in his uniform with a cap band for HMS Agamemnom, which looking at the dates in his service record means he was on her when she commissioned on 25 June 1908, if I am reading my dates correctly.

 

All the best

Craig 

[horatio2]

For both ratings, their time in ST GEORGE shows them under List 12 - men borne for service in tenders, although in neither case is the tender ship noted. They may have been 'floaters', available to be called forward for any tender, as a short-term substitutes if needed.If they had been ST GEORGE Ship's Company (ie on complement) they would have been List 5.

James was, indeed, in AGAMEMNON for the first two years plus of her service.

[Tawhiri]

Can I ask another question after reading your reply, horatio2? You said that if they had been part of a ship's company they would have been List 5, and I can certainly see a number of 5's in the appropriate column in both of their service records. What, however, is the significance of being List 12 when serving on HMS Foyle for example? From Bryan's earlier replies it looks as though they were both serving on HMS Foyle, which was then attached to a Depot Ship, either HMS Vivid or HMS Leander if I am reading things correctly, yet they are both still shown as List 12 on HMS Foyle.

 

My apologies if the answer is an obvious one, but this is becoming very much a learning experience for me.

Edited 21 May , 2020 by Tawhiri

[RNCVR]

3 hours ago, Tawhiri said:

Bryan

 

That was very useful, thank you. One of the things that had been puzzling me when looking at James' record earlier was why he had apparently spent so much time ashore at a depot, when the answer was that he was on a sea-going Depot ship as part of the regular crew. I did wonder whether the brief gap in his service on HMS St George in 1912 was linked to his wedding, but that took place in August 1912, so after he started his second stint on the ship. Somewhere in the family there is a photograph of him in his uniform with a cap band for HMS Agamemnom, which looking at the dates in his service record means he was on her when she commissioned on 25 June 1908, if I am reading my dates correctly.

 

All the best

Craig 

Craig, 

I dont know wy he was drafted to Pembroke between the 2 St George drafts, at first glance I thought it might have been for a week's leave,  but really that is just a guess. A short course is also a possibility.

Horatio may have thought(s) on that.

 

Yes that is correct - his time on Agamemnon was 24 Jun '08 to 26 Sep '10.

Be nice if you could lay your hands on that photo & post it!

 

Best.... Bryan

[RNCVR]

2 hours ago, horatio2 said:

For both ratings, their time in ST GEORGE shows them under List 12 - men borne for service in tenders, although in neither case is the tender ship noted. They may have been 'floaters', available to be called forward for any tender, as a short-term substitutes if needed.If they had been ST GEORGE Ship's Company (ie on complement) they would have been List 5.

James was, indeed, in AGAMEMNON for the first two years plus of her service.

 

Thanks Horatio, I should have picked up on the Ship's company list 5.

Same occurs with Submarine ratings, their Sub is not always shown beside the Depot ship entry.

ie: Maidstone (E-6)

 

Best.... Bryan

 

[horatio2]

38 minutes ago, Tawhiri said:

What, however, is the significance of being List 12 when serving on HMS Foyle for example?

To be clear: they were 'borne on List 12 of the books' of the parent/depot ships while seving in HMS FOYLE. If FOYLE had been a larger ship (eg cruiser) she would have carried her own accounts and they would then have been listed as "FOYLE List 5"

In fact, as discussed, FOYLE was a tender to the parent/depot ships and all her ship's company would have been on their List 12.

However, caveat emptor . It will sometimes be noted that personnel are recorded serving on List 12, when the name of the parent ship will be detailed, but not the name of the ships (the tender) in which they actually served. This can sometimes be resolved by register office certificates (BMD) or the census but often not and a discrepancy between the various records will ensue.

Edited 21 May , 2020 by horatio2

[Tawhiri]

Horatio2 and Bryan

 

Got it! Thank you very much to both of you for taking the time to respond and explain it all to me, it is very much appreciated.

 

Bryan, I will see if I can track down who in the family has the photo of James Herbert in his uniform with a view to getting a scanned copy of it that I can post. It might take a while given current circumstances, and hopefully posting a pre-war photo isn't outside the forum rules.

 

All the best

 

Craig

[RNCVR]

Love those old Victorian\Edwardian RPPC's, have a lot of them in my collection & have been posting some of them in the POSTCARDS topic.

I dont feel there would be a problem you posting a pre 1WW Photo Craig., I have posted them & have not encountered a problem.

 

Best...

Bryan

 

[Tawhiri]

Bryan

 

My apologies for the quality of the photo, but this was sent to me last night. James Herbert taken sometime while he was serving on HMS Agamemnon between June 1908 and September 1910. I will try and get a better scanned copy once lockdown is lifted and we can start travelling again and hopefully get up north at some point this summer.

 

All the best

Craig

 

 

Edited 26 May , 2020 by Tawhiri

[RNCVR]

Very nice photo Craig.

His insignia tells me he is likely an AB(Able Seaman) with his first GCB ( minimum three yrs service),

& his rate (specialty) was SG1 (Seaman Gunner) 1st class.

& these fit in nicely with the respective entries on his ADM 188.

 

Thanks for posting,

Best ....Bryan

Edited 26 May , 2020 by RNCVR
.

[Tawhiri]

Bryan

 

Thank you for the additional information, this has been a real learning experience for me, not to mention enjoyable too.

 

Now if only the other two gentlemen I am trying to find some more information about were not so elusive.

 

All the best

Craig

 

[RNCVR]

As the Chinese philosopher said yrs ago - 'a photo is worth a thousand characters!'

 

I know they reveal much to me.

 

Best ....Bryan