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Remembered Today:

R.N.A.C.D machine gun course ?


BIFFO

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any GWF know what R.N.A.C.D stands for please :thumbsup:

image.png.6416fdad41a305996e7093f36de27da3.png      (34)

 

image.png.02a813032ed16c843e3a917c46fc2992.png

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Interesting. Could you post a bit more about this extract, please Biffo? Unit, date, location, war diary, etc. would all be helpful to my research into the RNACD.

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image.png.38b9f40329630b5a58d9fab20b5f51a7.png

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I am a good way into the wd have never seen RNACD mentioned,have also transcribed some of the 53 wd they are not mentioned there either,now I know of your interest if I see them again I will pm you :thumbsup:

:poppy:

 

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Biffo,

 

I hope that H2 will correct me if I run astray here,

but in general terms the armoured cars proved ineffective on Gallipoli and I believe that they were returned to Egypt after the Second Battle of Krithia.

Under the same RNACD command however there were motor cycle squadrons armed with machine-guns and these fellows gained a very good reputation on the peninsula (most often operating without their motor cycles).

In August 1915 the Army took over responsibility for the Armoured Car Division from the RN and expected their new personnel and guns on Gallipoli to be withdrawn. Hamilton however put in a special plea to the WO to keep hold of these useful teams and was successful in hanging on to some of them.

Thus we find RNACD machine-gunners manning their guns at Jephson's Post on KTS ridge during the fighting at Suvla.

 

210724140_MapRNASMGsatJephsons.jpg.639e967e0676c550c898a6b83eb28cc6.jpg

 

I had not heard of the RNACD MG School before, but quite possibly there was another team in the Suvla rear area carrying out such a task

 

regards

Michael

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Michael, Thanks you for posting the map, which is new to me.

The cars proved pretty useless in the absence of roads, as you say. These were not 4WD, 4-ton, cross-country SUVs .In fact the guns of the motor cycle Maxim squadron came ashore first at Anzac in late April. Eight cars did not come ashore until May (date uncertain) and they tried to get into action in 3rd Krithia in June without much success. That was the end for the cars. 

Motor Cycle Maxim Squadrons of the RNACD were originally intended to be part of the RND but had been grouped with the RNAS armoured cars. At Gallipoli, their dismounted MGs were of more use than the Scott motorcycles and sidecars provided to take them intoaction. They were allotted as Army Troops and divided into detachments attached to various divisions. They saw a lot of action.

I think the Gallipoli RNACD squadrons were pretty much untouched by the tussling going on in the BEF over their future. Hamilton did hold them in high regard and gave them a good report in his despatches.

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Another not known to me,whats an L.D MAN?

image.png.acb32afcb2b7e4aada3b200043a5214c.png

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24 minutes ago, horatio2 said:

Thanks you for posting the map, which is new to me.

 

H2,

These maps were originally seen on the Sea Our History website, but alas the link which I have for them no longer works 

The other two maps/sketches are:

2070059022_MapRNASMGsatJephsonsII.jpg.cc735d7cf34804ee616ae3b0c6654781.jpg

 

1753119461_MapRNASMGsatJephsonsIII.jpg.c375079a55afa79d0e4766b5514f90e7.jpg

 

There are also refs to these chaps in the Naval Review, Vol.IV (continued): see the article Dardanelles Notes – HMS Prince George commencing on p.198

The refs to the MGs at Jephsons are pages 263/264/268 and there may well be others

The officer i/c was Borton

quote - “I heard about this time that the officer who runs the machine guns at Jephson's post, which belong to the armoured car section of the R.N.A.S., is Arthur Borton, from Cheveney. Extraordinary running up against him out here. He is doing very good work here, and has a lively time; the enemy shell the place all day. He is the second man I have unexpectedly run up against at Suvla, the other was Jack More, from Harlech."

 

Apologies to Biffo for the slight diversion

 

best regards

Michael

 

Edited by michaeldr
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18 hours ago, michaeldr said:

In August 1915 the Army took over responsibility for the Armoured Car Division from the RN and expected their new personnel and guns on Gallipoli to be withdrawn. Hamilton however put in a special plea to the WO to keep hold of these useful teams and was successful in hanging on to some of them.

Thus we find RNACD machine-gunners manning their guns at Jephson's Post on KTS ridge during the fighting at Suvla.

 

The order of 29th July 1915, from Braithwaite titled

'Final Instructions from GHQ to IX Corps for Suvla Operations'

gives details in para 5 of the 'troops at your disposal will be....'

and after 11th & 10 Divisions appears

 

“Three squadrons, R.N. Armoured Car Division, R.N.A.S.

(one squadron motor cycles, six machine guns; one squadron, Ford cars, six machine guns; one squadron, armoured cars, six machine guns).”

..................................................................................................

 

17 hours ago, BIFFO said:

Another not known to me,whats an L.D MAN?

image.png.acb32afcb2b7e4aada3b200043a5214c.png

 

65 L.D. men with 158th Brigade - the term Labour Directorate officially came into use much later in the war, but I wonder if this was an early local use of the term on this front.

There were certainly problems with the labour on Gallipoli a) when they had to work under enemy fire and b) later during the freezing weather.

Both Egyptian and Greek Labour Companies were employed at Suvla 

 

edit to add -  "Labour Companies" may not be the exact term used in this case either.

I note that Starling & Lee in the book 'No Labour, No Battle' refer to Egyptian Works Companies'

Edited by michaeldr
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Thank you very much thats this batch finished :thumbsup:

:poppy:

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The photos of the RNAS armoured cars in their protective trenches are quite well known. I found this interesting one while searching newspaper archives - published October 1915. Presumably craned down off the ship and looks like the small boat is some kind of shallow draft  "landing craft" with a drop down front  - probably used more for getting horses ashore. 

Gallipoli AC.jpg

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David,

 

That's a fascinating photograph from a very good angle to get a view of what appears to a let-down ramp at the rear. That is a new one for me. What we can see of the mechanism actually suggests a more sophisticated arrangement that we are used to seeing on the Beetles with their 'horns'

The Beetles were not available in April, but were in August, and I imagine that this craft also dates from about that time, but I shall be interested to hear what others think on this.

Thanks again for sharing this.

 

regards

Michael

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Very interesting. Given the redundancy of the armoured cars, as proven in 3rd Battle of Krithia, I think it may be more likely that this is an image of a car being removed from the peninsula, rather than being landed (unless the image dates back to May when the eight cars were landed), As far as I know, none were landed thereafter (I stand to be corrected on this) and the cars at Helles were re-embarked by August.

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Yes I'd tend to agree on a car leaving contrary to the origional caption. Published in October 1915 so probably taken a month or so previously fits the time frame for them leaving. 

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23 hours ago, michaeldr said:

What we can see of the mechanism actually suggests a more sophisticated arrangement that we are used to seeing on the Beetles with their 'horns'

The Beetles were not available in April, but were in August, and I imagine that this craft also dates from about that time, but I shall be interested to hear what others think on this.

 

CORRECTION

 

I've raised this question with our GWF Pal, Eceabat, and he has correctly pointed out to me out how much smaller this craft is than a Beetle. His opinion is more in line with David's first comment, that it was probably first designed as a horse-barge and may be a sort of dumb-lighter.

This being so, then the picture could well date from earlier in the campaign and have been taken at the landing of the cars on the peninsula

.................................................................................

 

Regarding the RNACD's machine-gunners at Suvla

there's a ref in the book Sir Frederick Sykes and the Air Revolution, which seems relevant;

see chapter Gallipoli to 1916, page 81.

 

quote:- “Sykes also reorganized the Royal Naval Armoured Car Division and fought to take the RNAS men back from Army machine-gun duties, using them as they had been trained: as aircraft mechanics.”

 

The applicable foot note is as follows:

“GHQ to War Office, Despatch 2205, 23 October 1915, Sykes Papers, MFC 77/13/33. Sykes was battling a decision made in London when Balfour replaced Churchill. … … … … … … In addition, Balfour had given all RNAS ancillary services to the War Office, and Sykes believed that he needed those services at Gallipoli more than the Army needed them. See Admiralty Letter C.E.8423 1 September 1915, Montagu Papers, I/C/35, Liddell Hart Centre; and Divine, 78-9.”

 

regards

Michael

 

Edited by michaeldr
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2 hours ago, michaeldr said:

quote:- “Sykes also reorganized the Royal Naval Armoured Car Division and fought to take the RNAS men back from Army machine-gun duties, using them as they had been trained: as aircraft mechanics.”

Hmmm. Thank you, Michael. Not sure about the evidence for this statement which is incorrect about the Petty Officer Mechanics of the RNACD.

A very small number may have had brief initial training on aircraft (mainly those who had enlisted early in the war) but the majority were enlisted (late-1914/early-1915) for duty in the RNACD. This is seen in the large numbers of chauffeurs, drivers (various), motor mechanics and car salesmen in their number. With their hard-won MG expertise at Gallipoli and zero aircraft experience, there was no way they would have been given up by Hamilton and I am surprised that Sykes, who had two RNAS wings under his command, even bothered to try. I would be interested to know of what his 'reorganisation' of the RNACD consisted. I think we may be seeing Sykes trying to 'put his arms around' anyone and anythnig that had as 'RNAS' tag attached to it. Nice to see an Army officer (commissioned RM and RNAS) being so 'up' for his new service!

 

You are both correct about the lighter. 'X' lighters were over 100ft long; 'Y' dumb (towed) lighters were 34 ft long. I estimated the lighter in the image is about 30 ft long.

Dittmar and Colledge describe the 'Y' craft as "box-like shells intended for carrying troops and equipment" to be towed but possibly with outboard engines. I have seen no specific mention of 'Y' lighters at Gallipoli (as a class - they were apparently built for Mespot) but they are a pretty generic design.

As to date - early /late, landing/re-embarking)  we may never know. But why no gun mounted in the car? Had it been removed for use by the MG teams? In which case we may be seeing a useless, toothless car being re-embarked.

 

There is much still to learn about the RNACD.

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1 hour ago, horatio2 said:

Hmmm. Thank you, Michael. Not sure about the evidence for this statement which is incorrect about the Petty Officer Mechanics of the RNACD.

A very small number may have had brief initial training on aircraft (mainly those who had enlisted early in the war) but the majority were enlisted (late-1914/early-1915) for duty in the RNACD. This is seen in the large numbers of chauffeurs, drivers (various), motor mechanics and car salesmen in their number. With their hard-won MG expertise at Gallipoli and zero aircraft experience, there was no way they would have been given up by Hamilton and I am surprised that Sykes, who had two RNAS wings under his command, even bothered to try. I would be interested to know of what his 'reorganisation' of the RNACD consisted. I think we may be seeing Sykes trying to 'put his arms around' anyone and anythnig that had as 'RNAS' tag attached to it. Nice to see an Army officer (commissioned RM and RNAS) being so 'up' for his new service!

 

You are both correct about the lighter. 'X' lighters were over 100ft long; 'Y' dumb (towed) lighters were 34 ft long. I estimated the lighter in the image is about 30 ft long.

Dittmar and Colledge describe the 'Y' craft as "box-like shells intended for carrying troops and equipment" to be towed but possibly with outboard engines. I have seen no specific mention of 'Y' lighters at Gallipoli (as a class - they were apparently built for Mespot) but they are a pretty generic design.

As to date - early /late, landing/re-embarking)  we may never know. But why no gun mounted in the car? Had it been removed for use by the MG teams? In which case we may be seeing a useless, toothless car being re-embarked.

 

There is much still to learn about the RNACD.

Think you are pretty close with the size of the lighter - given the car is 16ft long and a little  bit over 6ft wide. Seeing the wash around the rear it looks like it's manoeuvring alongside under it's own power. Chap sitting at the back possibly on the tiller.

Regarding no gun in the car, it was common practice when the cars were parked up, overnight or in transit to remove the gun, often you will see the turret reversed. In this case though the gun may be have been in use elsewhere.

Out of interest regarding machine gun training. I've just got hold of the class list for the  56th Vickers MG course at Hythe which ran from 31st October to 20th November 1914. The course appears to have been run primarily for the start up of the Motor Machine Gun Service as I have identified many men from my previous MMGS research. However there was one squad all RNVR, and some of the (Army) officer's certainly link to naval medal awards - so possibly there training for RNAS armoured cars.

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24 minutes ago, david murdoch said:

I've just got hold of the class list for the  56th Vickers MG course at Hythe which ran from 31st October to 20th November 1914. The course appears to have been run primarily for the start up of the Motor Machine Gun Service as I have identified many men from my previous MMGS research. However there was one squad all RNVR, and some of the (Army) officer's certainly link to naval medal awards - so possibly there training for RNAS armoured cars.

Would you be prepared to share the names here? They could be RNACD or the embryonic MG sections of the RND naval battalions. At present I have very little concrete evidence for these five battalions undergoing MG training over the winter 1914-15, so names would be really helpful.

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57 minutes ago, horatio2 said:

Would you be prepared to share the names here? They could be RNACD or the embryonic MG sections of the RND naval battalions. At present I have very little concrete evidence for these five battalions undergoing MG training over the winter 1914-15, so names would be really helpful.

Yes of course. I found in an MMGS soldier's service file, but put together on one PDF. Plenty of familiar names (to me) in the list from my previous MMGS/MGC(M). I will need to spread sheet it myself and check all names to see where they went. Already have a couple of RFC flyers, at least 4 MMG Battery Sgt Major and several Tank officers. You will see 7th group of NCOs were all RNVR and if you check through the officers there are for sure several with RN medal records. Maybe some will jump out by name. 

56th Vickers class Hythe.pdf

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Thank you very much for posting the list. Very useful.

2 hours ago, david murdoch said:

You will see 7th group of NCOs were all RNVR

Not so - The school list is in error here. None of the men listed were RNVR. They were all Royal Navy (RNAS), enlisted for armoured cars. None of them were "cyclist", All were enlisted as air mechanics and rated PO Mechanics in the RNACD. One only was a CPO. Five of the ratings listed were later commissioned in the Army or RNVR. Most enlisted in October 1914 and sent almost immediately to Hythe.

More work to do on the officers' list. Fascinating material.

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1 hour ago, horatio2 said:

Thank you very much for posting the list. Very useful.

Not so - The school list is in error here. None of the men listed were RNVR. They were all Royal Navy (RNAS), enlisted for armoured cars. None of them were "cyclist", All were enlisted as air mechanics and rated PO Mechanics in the RNACD. One only was a CPO. Five of the ratings listed were later commissioned in the Army or RNVR. Most enlisted in October 1914 and sent almost immediately to Hythe.

More work to do on the officers' list. Fascinating material.

Thanks for that - regardless of that error it puts them there doing Vickers training - some of these MMGS men actually ended up in the armoured cars themselves once the army took them over. My grandfather's car (in Mesopotamia) certainly originated with the RNAS  it was one of the 1914 serial range built for the Admiralty and served in France until late 1917. It possibly ended it's days in Iraq either with a Tank Corps Armoured Car Company or even lasted until RAF days or it may have gone on to Tank Corps ACC in India - minus it's chassis plate :D

DSC00227.JPG

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