Has Anyone Got A Photograph Of..........

[Christina Holstein]

This is what is looked like until recently. This is seen from the former German lines.

Edited 26 August , 2020 by Christina Holstein
adding to what I'd written

[Christina Holstein]

This is now the north side (former German lines). I suppose it looked like this a few years after the end of the war.

[Christina Holstein]

But at least you can now see Montfaucon. It's on the skyline just at the left end of the bare field. It's about 4km from Cote 304 as the crow flies and hugely important in the fighting but you couldn't see it before. Some good things coming out of this, I suppose. 

[Fattyowls]

Christina

 

Thanks for these; Cote 304 looks completely different. The last time I was there the monument could be in any pine woodland in the world; there was no view to indicate why it was there. If I remember it correctly it wasn't immediately obvious that you were on a hill.

 

The sunsets are lovely; I particularly like the Souville from Vaux for the same reasons that you do. I had a look after seeing them for some artistic analysis of why that time is so special without coming to any conclusions, but if you add the significance of that view to the beauty of the light it really hits home. When you add the words of Laurence Binyon* that most Anglophone individuals with an interest in WW1 know so well I can understand why sunsets and battlefields go together.

 

Pete.

 

*Interestingly (to me at least) Binyon wrote the words very early in the war in Cornwall. Being too old to fight he went to France as a medical orderly and worked with the wounded from Verdun during 1916. His poem 'Men of Verdun' is very evocative, one of three he wrote about the battle if I remember correctly.

[Fattyowls]

5 hours ago, Marilyne said:

It's been too long since I was in Verdun

 

My thoughts exactly. I'm approaching two decades. Have you got any from when you were there?

 

Pete.

[Fattyowls]

Just to continue one of the themes of the thread which is looking back the other way I thought I would post a view from Fort Souville to Fort Vaux following on from Christina's winter sunset. I climbed up on the top of Souville 25 or so years ago and you couldn't see the wood for the trees. Not only that it was seriously dangerous with big holes all over the place. So if I wanted to post a modern view then I could choose any scene of a dense coniferous forest and you would get the idea.

 

So to get a sense of what it used to look like I went back to the remarkable Michelin Guide to the battlefield done in the immediate aftermath of the war. I've annotated it and can't help thinking that some of the barbed wire was still there when I last was......

 

Pete.

 

Image courtesy of the Project Gutenberg copy of the guide.

 

 

Edited 26 August , 2020 by Fattyowls
It was tense

[Christina Holstein]

On 26/08/2020 at 18:47, Fattyowls said:

Just to continue one of the themes of the thread which is looking back the other way I thought I would post a view from Fort Souville to Fort Vaux following on from Christina's winter sunset. I climbed up on the top of Souville 25 or so years ago and you couldn't see the wood for the trees...

 

Image courtesy of the Project Gutenberg copy of the guide.

 

 

Hi Pete,

 

You still can't see the wood from the trees from the top of Ft. Souville.  If you go up the glacis behind the Maginot memorial, where it's been cleared, you can see Froideterre but you can't see it from the road except a glimpse between the trees in winter. This is what that part of the glacis looks like now. It's about 3 years since it was cleared and it's getting overgrown.

And last year.

 

Christina 

[Fattyowls]

27 minutes ago, Christina Holstein said:

If you go up the glacis behind the Maginot memorial

 

I had no idea that the Maginot memorial was so close to Souville. I've passed it lots of times but you had no sense of where you were when the trees were thick; it was just a tunnel of conifers. I don't know if this is the right translation but 'chaque jour est un jour d’école'.

 

I looked at the Michelin Guide panorama and wondered if Vaux and Douaumont had been touched in to make them clearer, but looking at other contemporary photos I don't think they have. I was intrigued to see just how close each of the named locations on the photo are to each other so I had a play about in Google Earth; even closer than I thought is the answer. I'll tidy up the result and maybe post it later.

 

Pete.

[Fattyowls]

As promised/threatened (delete as appropriate) a snip from Google Earth showing the area covered by the Michelin Guide panorama above, with the locations marked and distances between them measured. I think the Ouvrage de Froidterre is just off to the left of the photo but you get the idea.

 

Pete.

 

Just for reference Douaumont  was captured by the Germans 25th February 1916 and recaptured by the French on 24th October. Vaux was captured by the Germans June 7th, recaptured by the French 2nd November. I can't remember if Thiaumont and Froidterre changed hands for any length of time but German troops reached Souville on 11th July but were driven back. I think I've got the dates correct, I know a lady who will know for sure.......

 

Pete.

 

 

[stripeyman]

Photo taken in 1991, there is another later. Where do you think it was ?

Just now, stripeyman said:

Photo taken in 1991, there is another later. Where do you think it was ?

 

[Christina Holstein]

15 hours ago, Fattyowls said:

As promised/threatened (delete as appropriate) a snip from Google Earth showing the area covered by the Michelin Guide panorama above, with the locations marked and distances between them measured. I think the Ouvrage de Froidterre is just off to the left of the photo but you get the idea.

 

Pete.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Pete,

That really shows how tiny was the area involved in the constant May-October fighting on the Right Bank.

 

Froideterre is three quarters of a mile from Thiaumont, so the distance from Fort Douaumont is not even two miles. It  was reached by the Germans  on 23 June 1916 but they were driven back and never got there again. They got the Ouvrage de Thiaumont on 23rd June, lost it on 3 August and recaptured it five days later. Thereafter it remained behind German lines but not really occupied because it was a total ruin by then. 

 

A handful of men reached the glacis of Fort Souville on 11 July but were captured, killed or driven off. There was no further attempt to capture it.

 

The movement towards Fort Vaux began on 27 February and it was only finally captured on 7 June. Once again so near and yet so far.

 

 Here's a view of the shelling between Thiaumont and Froideterre.

[Fattyowls]

13 hours ago, stripeyman said:

Where do you think it was ?

 

I hadn't a clue when I first looked at the photo last night but for some reason La Boisselle and the old Y Sap site has popped into my head this morning. I've seen a relatively contemporary aerial view which shows the ghost of the crater on the ground before it was built on. Can I find it now? Of course I can't.

 

As Murray Walker is reputed to have said "Unless I am very much mistaken, YES, I AM, VERY MUCH MISTAKEN.

 

Pete.

 

P.S. If I am emulating Murray then a few clues might be necessary.......

[Knotty]

38 minutes ago, Fattyowls said:

a few clues might be necessary

Look for a telegraph wire😁

[stripeyman]

As 1991 was a while ago I can't remember any telegraph wires....

The clue is an area to the east of Arras.

[Fattyowls]

4 hours ago, stripeyman said:

The clue is an area to the east of Arras.

 

I'm assuming we are talking the immediate east of Arras, rather than suburban Prague or the Ukraine; if so I'll go for the site of the Roeux chemical factory. It's the only place I can think of off hand.

 

Pete.

[Fattyowls]

9 hours ago, Christina Holstein said:

Froideterre is three quarters of a mile from Thiaumont

 

Thanks again Christina.

 

I've realised as a result of all this that I have been mixing Froidterre up with Thiaumont for nearly two decades. When I was last there with the thunderstorm approaching it was the former and not the latter where I experienced the strange ionisation phenomenon. I now realise that there is not much at Thiaumont to stand on top of, electrical atmospheric effects or no electical atmospheric effects. I've even been into print on the internet with the anecdote, if I were a better or nicer person I'd be ashamed.

 

Jeder Tag ist ein schultag.

 

Pete.

 

P.S. Thinking about the map it might be of interest to Arman (@Armaan) in his quest for the Deadly Quadrilateral

Edited 29 August , 2020 by Fattyowls
pants punctuation

[stripeyman]

3 hours ago, Fattyowls said:

 

I'm assuming we are talking the immediate east of Arras, rather than suburban Prague or the Ukraine; if so I'll go for the site of the Roeux chemical factory. It's the only place I can think of off hand.

 

Pete.

Spot on ! Its the Comical Works. I believe there is a small supermarket there now.

[Marilyne]

Just as I'm updating my thread on the women, I hope to fully finish the Abbeville document (nearly 20 pages) by the end of next week, meaning when the course starts for real. 

Meanwhile, though I'd share this one of the 9 WAACs of Abbeville with you ... just to change the sector again. 

 

 

 

 

[Fattyowls]

12 hours ago, stripeyman said:

Spot on ! Its the Comical Works. I believe there is a small supermarket there now.

 

Just got lucky Mr S; it's genuinely the only location I could think of. I quite like the idea of posting photos of significant places without caption; having spent far too much time larking about with my chums on the Who Is This? thread it may be an option.

 

Pete.

[Christina Holstein]

23 hours ago, Fattyowls said:

 

 

 

I've realised as a result of all this that I have been mixing Froidterre up with Thiaumont for nearly two decades. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Nothing to be ashamed of, Pete. About 18 years ago, I reviewed a book on Verdun published by a well known company that had actually got them mixed up on a map.

 

Christina

[Fattyowls]

To add to the Verdun theme (after three weeks) this is how I imagine 90% of the battlefield looks today, despite the logging that Christina has highlighted. The view would be especially likely if you fell down one of the holes atop Fort Souville......

 

 

This is a stock shot from publicdomainpictures.com and could be anywhere - but in the trees at Verdun you could also be anywhere......

 

Souville was still relatively clear in the late 20's when this photo was taken. This is Souville looking over Fleury towards the Ossuary and Douaumont with the lion monument at the crossroads visible. The buildings to the left of the crossroads are where the Fleury museum now stands; it's from National Geographic magazine, although the original that I found was the wrong way round. This is how it should look. I'm intrigued by the colour, I wondered if it had been colourised but I'm not sure; if any of the photographic experts would care to comment I would be all ears......

 

 

 

[tomisitt]

I think it’s probably an autochrome image, similar to this
 

[Fattyowls]

That would make a lot of sense Tom, thank you.

[Jaeger6]

I couldn't read all the posts so I hope these pictures are not redundant. It's the Hooghe front line as preserved in the garden of Hotel Kasteelhof 't Hooghe, next to Hooge Crater Museum. I took the photos in 2016.

[Fattyowls]

1 hour ago, Jaeger6 said:

I hope these pictures are not redundant

 

Good additions Jaeger, I don't think we've had any like that; thanks for posting them. I'm almost certainly wrong but the Hooge craters are the only ones that I can think of that have that vivid green pond weed. It's a long time since I've been there but the colour sticks in my memory.

 

Pete.