Samuel Baxter Regiment Question

[Guest]

I'm researching my mums great uncle who is remembered on the Menin Gate. He was Pte Samuel Baxter died 9 April 1917.

On his medal records I can see that he originally joined the West Yorkshire regiment No 21422 and then changed to the York and Lancaster regiment No 34363. My query is, is it possible to find out when/why he changed regiments and also is it possible to find out which battle he might of died in?

I've downloaded some regimental war diaries from the national archives but have yet to trawl through them.

He also had a brother, Bramwell (sometimes misspelled as Bramuell)Baxter who is buried in France. He was in the Worcestershire regiment no 41941 but I can't find his service records or sign up documents. I wonder why he joined this regiment as they both lived in Pudsey, West Yorkshire.

[Jrmh]

 

http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/york-lancaster-regiment/ puts the Battalion with 70th Brigade in 8th Division.

http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order-of-battle-of-divisions/8th-division/ shows the battles in which they took part.

 

 

 

[Pat Atkins]

Welcome to the forum. I'm no expert, but to get the ball rolling:

 

There were many reasons a man might be transferred from one regiment to another once overseas, for example if he was hospitalised sick or wounded, he might be reassigned when fit again. However, in your relative's case, we can see from the medal rolls that several men with service numbers either side of his followed the same route from 9th West Yorks to 8th York & Lancs, so I'd guess he was part of a draft of men transferred together in response to a need for replacements in 8th York & Lancs. It's quite possible there will be a mention of this event in the War Diary, but don't hold your breath - some are more helpful than others! 

 

Bramwell was in 3rd Bn Worcesters, and died of wounds on 23 March 1918 in the big German offensive (from his Soldiers Effects entry via Ancestry). There is a means of calculating his enlistment date from the amount of his War Gratuity in the entry, Forum Pal Craig created it: https://www.wargratuity.uk. If you have Ancestry the Worcesters War Diary has quite a detailed account of the heavy fighting of 21st and 22nd March 1918 here in which one might guess Bramwell Baxter could have been fatally wounded.

 

Edit: I don't know how much choice men had in terms of enlisting in their local battalions - it was possible with Regular enlistment and Territorial service early in the war, but certainly after January 1916 and the introduction of conscription I think men went wherever the army decided it needed them. LLT (on menu bar top of screen) has useful info on this as on everything else.

 

Cheers, Pat

 

Edited 17 May , 2020 by Pat Atkins

[Pat Atkins]

Actually, I just checked Ancestry again - they have Samuel Baxter's service record (or what is left of it) here. In case you don't, here's a brief summary as I read it:

 

He joined up on 31st May 1915, at York, and was posted to 9th Bn on 14th November 1915; he actually seems to have joined the Battalion overseas (Mediterranean Expeditionary Force) on 16th March 1916 but I'm not sure, this seems to conflict with the earlier date. He landed in France from Alexandria in early July 1916 and transferred to 8th Y&L on 10th September 1916 (might be worth checking their War Diary around that date, then). He is posted as "Missing" on 19th April 1917.

 

Weirdly, there is no mention of his brother Bramwell Baxter in the details of Samuel's family he gave? There's a William Gage Baxter aged 42 recorded as a brother. Odd. 

 

Cheers, Pat.

Edited 17 May , 2020 by Pat Atkins

[Guest]

Wow, thanks both, thats lots more info to read through. I see his service record details the date he transferred regiments so I'm hoping between that record and the diaries I can piece together a history of what he did. If only there was similar detail for his brother Bramwell. I've attached his pic just for interest.

[Jrmh]

Bramwell’s Regiment in 25 Division,74 Brigade:

 

http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order-of-battle-of-divisions/25th-division/

 

more to read! Good luck.

 

[sadbrewer]

3 hours ago, Pat Atkins said:

Actually, I just checked Ancestry again - they have Samuel Baxter's service record (or what is left of it) here. In case you don't, here's a brief summary as I read it:

 

He joined up on 31st May 1915, at York, and was posted to 9th Bn on 14th November 1915; he actually seems to have joined the Battalion overseas (Mediterranean Expeditionary Force) on 16th March 1916 but I'm not sure, this seems to conflict with the earlier date. He landed in France from Alexandria in early July 1916 and transferred to 8th Y&L on 10th September 1916 (might be worth checking their War Diary around that date, then). He is posted as "Missing" on 19th April 1917.

 

Weirdly, there is no mention of his brother Bramwell Baxter in the details of Samuel's family he gave? There's a William Gage Baxter aged 42 recorded as a brother. Odd. 

 

Cheers, Pat.

 

Williams Gage was the Baxters oldest child, born in Drighlington in 1877.

[Guest]

Hi @mart11, apologies I'm a year late to this thread. Samuel Baxter and Bramwell Baxter from Pudsey, West Yorkshire were also my Mum's great uncles and I am also researching their service during the First World War. I have been given a photo of who we thought was Samuel Baxter however it looks to be a different person to Samuel in your photograph. I wondered if the photo I have is actually Bramwell Baxter (Worcestershire Regiment 419410). I'm not sure if it is possible to tell the Regiment from the insignia.

[Michelle Young]

Welcome to the forum. It's not that clear, but I think the badge could be West Yorkshire Regiment. Marts photo also looks like West Yorks. Mart hasn't visited the forum since he made his post on 17th May. 

Michelle 

[FROGSMILE]

I concur with Michelle, definitely the West Yorkshire Regiment, the ‘running horse’ (of Hanover) badge was very distinctive (albeit shared with 3rd King's Hussars).

 

[Matlock1418]

mart11 and SJT,

 

Welcome to GWF.

 

These may perhaps help you - some of the less commonly/less accessed sources:

 

Dependant's Pension Index Cards at WFA/Fold3 = Samuel BAXTER 34363 and Bramwell BAXTER 41941 have several between them

- the likely most new/interesting facts seem to be that their mother got 15/- Combined Award (Art 21-1a) from 8.10.18 for Life [in the Royal Warrant Article 21 being the one for Dependants, such as a mother or father - mothers commonly got the first claim on such pension payments and a father only later, if the mother had died] and also that a Balancing Gratuity £9 2/- has been paid

[WFA annual membership £29, Ancestry & Fold3 require rather more for their subscriptions!]

 

Soldier's Will at the Probate Service = Bramwell BAXTER 41941  https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/Wills?Surname=baxter&SurnameGrants=baxter&FirstName=bramwell&FirstNameGrants=bramwell&YearOfDeath=1918&YearOfDeathGrants=1918&AdvancedSearch=True&IsGrantSearch=False&IsCalendarSearch=False#soldiers 

[£1.50 fee required to be paid but you could at least get to see his signature, even if the Will itself is pretty simple - you won't know until you get it! ]

 

In the absence of a Service Record for Bramwell [though I am certainly very much not an expert in such matters!] one way to establish a bit of Bramwell's service is to check SR for other Worcestershire soldiers who have a close regimental numbers - try to 'bracket', i.e. a few either side, to get a window for his enlistment and mobilisation and perhaps a glimpse of what Bramwell might potentially have done in terms of posting(s) and deployment etc.

 

Good luck with your research

:-) M

Edited 3 June , 2021 by Matlock1418
details of mother's pension

[Guest]

Thank you so much Matlock1418, FROGSMILE and Michelle Young that's really helpful. I'll read through all the additional information on the Probate Index Card and Will. I really appreciate your help.