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Remembered Today:

Deutsche Maschinengewehr-Abteilung der Heersgruppe F


stevenbecker

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Mates,

 

I was looking for the officers commanding this MG Bn during its fighting in Palestine?

 

So far I have found these men;

 

601st Maschinegewehr Bn - 8xMGCo's

Maj Mayer (or Meyer) British reports shown him as ADC to Kress in 1918

to Maj Michaelis 12-17 (no details)?

 

(601st MG Co - Lt Stahl  (shown Istanbul'da Alman askeri heyetinde görevli (Served at the German military delegation in Istanbul)

602nd MG Co - Lt Steiger Willy spelling name?

603rd MG Co - Lt Becke Pow 9-1-17 or 608th Co (no details)?

604th MG Co - Lt Seger spelling name?

605th MG Co - Lt Von Benkwitz PoW Aug 1916 at Romani) (no details)?

606th MG Co - Lt Rosskothen  spelling name?

607th MG Co - Lt Paque  spelling name?

608th MG Co - Lt Becke Pow 9-1-17 or 603rd Co (as above)

 

Becke was captured I believe out side Rafa around 9-1-17

Benkwitz von PoW 4-8-16 at Romani  most of his company was captured there? (reported Co strength 1 officer 24 NCO & men 74 Turks) + 21 Arabs 10 horses 52 camels for Romani operations (not identifed)? 
 

I also have a

Lt Canaan Madia (1884 at Bet-Dschala Jerusalem ) reported MIA possibly PoW
Lt Eisenträger Kurt (1891 at Berlin ) reported MIA possibly PoW
Lt Sander Otto (1895 at Proskau ) reported MIA possibly PoW
Lt Kordier 601st MG Bn 1916 (not identified)? 
 

Do you have any insight on the 601st MG Bn sent to Palestine in early 1916?

 

Cheers


S.B

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No 601st MG Bn, but 601st MG Coy. All companies existed from April 1916 and belonged to Expedition "Pascha I" (4. Turkish Army). In September 1917 they were transferred to the Asienkorps.

 

The remainders of the companies were gathered into MG Abteilung Hentig on 27 October 1918, that would indicate an officer named Hentig in charge.

 

Source: Handbuch der Verbände und Truppen des deutschen Heeres 1914-1918, Part VII Maschinengewehrtruppen, Vol. 1.

Jan

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Mate,

 

All details I can find all show it as a Bn.

 

Kress writes that he took Six German MG Companies and formed them into a Heavy MG Bn of Eight companies for the Romani operations in Aug 1916.

 

Kress also mentions Meyer or Mayer as commander of one of these groups (4th Group 4Bn's Ottoman 32nd and 39th Regts + German 607 and 608 MG Companies)

 

Your right Hentig is mentioned as the MG comander in 1918, but what the unit looked like is hard to find as most companies were not with the unit. A record mentioned that Intell report dated May 1918 Allied reports 601st (training unit) 602nd MG Co 607th MG Co & 604th MG Co with the 603rd 605th 608th MG Cos had been disbanded?

 

So any names of officers in this unit or other details are welcome.

 

S.B

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7 hours ago, stevebecker said:

Mate,

 

All details I can find all show it as a Bn.

 

Kress writes that he took Six German MG Companies and formed them into a Heavy MG Bn of Eight companies for the Romani operations in Aug 1916.

 

Kress also mentions Meyer or Mayer as commander of one of these groups (4th Group 4Bn's Ottoman 32nd and 39th Regts + German 607 and 608 MG Companies)

 

Your right Hentig is mentioned as the MG comander in 1918, but what the unit looked like is hard to find as most companies were not with the unit. A record mentioned that Intell report dated May 1918 Allied reports 601st (training unit) 602nd MG Co 607th MG Co & 604th MG Co with the 603rd 605th 608th MG Cos had been disbanded?

 

So any names of officers in this unit or other details are welcome.

 

S.B

 

Believe me, if the 601st would have been a battalion, that would have been mentioned in the book I mentioned (and it wouldn't make sense either, the training (Ersatz) unit was always one step smaller than the unit it provided Ersatz for, a Battalion for a Regiment, a Company for a Battalion etc).

Also the "Schlachten und Gefechte des Großen Krieges 1914-1918" (the official German battle nomenclature) gives MG Komp. 601.

 

There were NO MG Battalions in the German Army, the level up for MG Coys was an Abteilung.

 

Jan

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Hello!

Jan is right. Companies.

Probably you´ve got your info from the book "Jildirim" (Schlachten des Weltkrieges vol. 4):

image.jpeg.b7fdf785af71613e10dfcbe8479fd7a0.jpeg

In Pascha II there were four Mountain MG-companies added

image.jpeg.787a0c8f8379ee89094c1a5c927e8b09.jpeg

But here also should be written "Company"

Carl Mühlmann used in his book "Das deutsch-türkische Waffenbündnis im Weltkrieg" the right designations:

image.jpeg.f4fe8a52419203a1fde0454f87267d88.jpeg

Edited by The Prussian
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Lts Eisenträger, Steiger and Sander were all taken PoW on 25.09.1918 at Amman.

The casualty list dated 29.09.1916 records a Ltn.d.R. Franz Walter MGK 601 as being severely wounded.

 

Charlie

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The Ottoman Army, then following the German model, had no MG Bns either. However, as an exception, these eight MG coys mustered under the same formation called "Heavy Machine Gun Battalion" (Ağır Makineli Tüfek Taburu) before being assigned to four different battle groups in pairs.  

 

The Turkish official history also mentions this battalion. See:

 

20200517_080034.jpg.f9089907716fa362f8c5d208f1c8e9a0.jpg

 

Emre

 

Edited by emrezmen
Just a little addition
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Mates,

 

You see now the confusion of this unit in the desert.

 

It looks like Kress mentions six MG companies were turned into eight MG companies while in Palestine?

 

But all records shown the 601st MG Komp

 

But all other records show the eight companies numbered 601 to 608

 

Mates can you translate the Old German shown in the document by Prussian, so the names can be understood?

 

As to the four Mountain MG Companies, these are news to me?

 

I do have one of the commanders name shown as;

 

Bülowius Karl ObLt Pion.Kp. 205 - Pionier-Kompagnie 205

 

So that helps fill a gap.

 

Cheers

 

S.B

Edited by stevebecker
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Hello!

 

1)

Pascha units 1916/17

MG Btl. 601/08

Major Meyer (until 5.12.17)

Major Michaelis (since 5.12.17)

601: Lt. Stahl

602: Lt. Steiger

604: Lt. Seger

606: Lt. Roßkothen

607: Lt. Paque

 

2)

Reinforcements Pascha II spring 1918

Mountain MG-Abt. (shoulb be coy.)

201: Oberleutnant Schmidt

203: Oberleutnant de Harde

207: ?

208: ?

 

3)

Staff MGK 601-608

601: without training comp.

602: without training comp.

604: used as reinforcement for 607

606: like 601

607: used with turkish MG with 604

MG-Abteilung Hentig

 

Mühlmann writes on  page 104, that end of august 1916 were 8 MG-companies at the egyptian front and 3 MG-detachments ("Abteilungen") in Iraq.

 

I also have a list, which says that the MG companies 601-608 and the "Light MG Training-command with 11 officers and 107 men came back to Germany with the Steamer "Lilly Rickmers" (arrival in Wilhelmshaven March 20, 1919):

image.jpeg.6889e4a182db92c0608478106adf9fb6.jpeg

 

 

The book "Palestine" (The ottoman campaigns of 1914-1918) by Edward J. Erickson mentions:

image.jpeg.312bca3199f288795eff10b25e7aaf6d.jpeg

 

Edited by The Prussian
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Interesting. There was a Staff designated for the eight machine guns companies. This number of companies under one leadership was too many to constitute a normal MG Abteilung so it makes sense that the Official History refers to MG Bataillon 601 zu 608 - a special case.


Robert

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I don´t  think, the MG coys had an own staff. Major Meyer (later Michaelis) were responsible for the companies (economy, weapons, uniforms and so on).

They wouldn´t have any tactical authority. The companies were under command of Pascha I, resp. ottoman 4th army (April 1916 - September 1917) and under command of the Asia-Corps resp. different turkish armies from September 1917 - October 1918.

After heavy losses, the rest of those companies formed the single MG-Abteilung (detachment) Hentig October 27, 1918.

Here is a snapshot of a (probably) german soldier in a bedouin-dress. Some germans wore those clothes if they stayed in contact with bedouin people.

Photo taken September 28, 1918 in Damaskus

 

Asienkorps (Damsakus, 28.9.1918, Beduine).jpg

Edited by The Prussian
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Mates,

 

Yes I also read that after the Sinai battles in 1916 the Eight companies were down graded into training units or at lest most of them.

 

While British Intell reports show most of them at Corps or Army Troops, none appear to have been used in the field, at lest not as whole units.

 

There was some debate if the 605 MG Komp was reformed after the Romani battle?

 

This is another photo I have;

 

Thanks for the details all most interesting.

 

Cheers

 

S.B

603 MG Bn German.jpg

Edited by stevebecker
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Hello!

A superb photo, Steve!!!!!!!

Mühlmann writes that the german MG-Bataillon was part of the turkish 3rd division in 1916. But I think he means the strength of those companies, not that it was an "official" bataillon with an own number.

He also writes to August 1916, that the german "Iraq-Group" had three MG-Abteilungen (detachments). What does he mean?  On page 104 he mentiones eight companies in Egypt and those three "detachments" in Iraq. So far we only read about those eight companies. Was he wrong?

For November 1917 he wrotes about the reinforcements "Pascha II": Four bataillons with Mountain-MG-Detachments"

 

What were those detachments of the Iraq-Group? Probably the mountain Geb.Abt. 201, 203, 207 and 208.

In summary, Kraus writes in his book "Maschinengewehrtruppen, vol. 1":

MG-Abteilung Hentig (formed of the rest of MGK 601-608)

MG companies 701-703 (those were the companies of the Inf.Btl. 701-703)

The mountain MG-Abteilungen (note: here he uses "Abteilung", not company!) were: 201, 203, 207 and 208.

Please don´t forget: Inf.Rgt.146 had three MG companies and Res.Jäger-Btl.11 had a MG-company!

Here is a photo of an unknown unit after the return to Germany. Note the sun-burned faces of some of those guys

 

Asienkorps.jpg

Edited by The Prussian
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15 hours ago, The Prussian said:

I don´t  think, the MG coys had an own staff. Major Meyer (later Michaelis) were responsible for the companies (economy, weapons, uniforms and so on).

They wouldn´t have any tactical authority.

My comment was directed specifically at the designation used by the Official History, rather than any reference to how the companies fought tactically in the field.

 

Robert

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I am venturing into an area I know little about, but the posts by Andy with regard to the Leichtmachinengewehrtruppen reminded me of a photograph I had seen many years ago of what would appear to be a light machine gun team of the German Asienkorps in Palestine, possibly 1916. The photo was of at least four German soldiers on rocky hill armed with a Bergman MG 15 nA light machine gun. From the scant information I have been able to find in reference to the Bergman MG 15 it was issued to Leichtmaschinegewehr truppen for use in Palestine.

The question is, where did the light machine gun troops fit into the German machine gun groups, and did they see action, or just remain as a training group?

 

Jeff

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Jeff,

 

See Deutsches Leichtes Maschinengewehr-Ausbildungskommando für die Türkei

 

Sorry but we little on this unit

 

S.B

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I´m still confused about that unit...

In #9 (the list of the incoming ship) is the unit mentioned.

Kraus writes, the "Ausbildungs-Kommando für leichte MG15 (Bergmann), Türkei,

was raised in April 1917 by MG-Lehrkursus Döberitz.

Ersatz came from 5.Ers.MG-Kp. Garde-Korps

Under command of: Inspektion des MG Wesens

Probably dissolved summer 1918 (?) through Garde-Gren.Rgt. 4

That doesn´t proof, if they were in Palestine or not...

 

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  • 1 year later...

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