kev1874 Posted 13 May , 2020 Share Posted 13 May , 2020 Hello, Can somebody please help me understand Georges service please, he was born Sunderland around 1885 (although the memorial has him aged 36 at death in 1917) to Nathaniel and Annie of 25 Nile street Sunderland. I'm trying to find out when he would have transferred to the KRRC and am wondering if anybody can throw some light onto it for me. He's got 2 numbers first is his ASC number SS/4745 and the KRRC number is A202712. Can anybody also tell me why his listed on the medals rolls for the KRRC but his medals are engraved with his ASC details, I always thought the medals were done to the last unit served with. Thanks in advance. Kev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coldstreamer Posted 14 May , 2020 Share Posted 14 May , 2020 unit on medals is one in which you first served in theater with Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kev1874 Posted 14 May , 2020 Author Share Posted 14 May , 2020 ah thanks a lot for clear that up for me Cheers Kev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stiletto_33853 Posted 14 May , 2020 Share Posted 14 May , 2020 His KRRC number shows a transfer from the ASC after September 1916 when this prefix and 6 numbers started appearing. Usually base grabs at the IBD's. This number sequence appeared shortly after the 20th Divisions attack on the 3/9/16 and were initially for 20th Div replacements but carried on until later in the war. B/****** for the RB. I have looked the the RB sequence but not the KRRC, these were taken in batches, usually 30 to 50 and came from all Regiments, i.e. B/200000 to B/200033 came from the 1st Leicestershire Regiment, B/200034 to B/200070 1st North Staffordshire Regiment and contained old hands returning after being wounded but mainly fresh recruits. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kev1874 Posted 14 May , 2020 Author Share Posted 14 May , 2020 Thanks for the info Andy, does anyone know where I can look into the numbers of the KRRC in a bit more detail and try and tie him down? Kev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stiletto_33853 Posted 14 May , 2020 Share Posted 14 May , 2020 Kev, If the KRRC followed the same sequence, which usually happened, I would suggest looking at the KRRC medal rolls and looking for numbers either side of your man. Several caveats though to be wary of, after the 1st say 1500 numbers the mould seem to be broken in that the batches seem not to be as accurate or predictable as say the first 1500. These men have always proven difficult to find given Ancestry's archaic search engine and the massive transcription errors, so be prepared to look not just at KRRC but the original regiments, inc the Training Reserve Battalions, which is where the batch system helped tremendously. There are large amounts of ASC men transferred into the KRRC/RB in this number sequence. Best of luck. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kev1874 Posted 14 May , 2020 Author Share Posted 14 May , 2020 thanks for the pointers Andy, and the wishes of luck sounds like I'm gonna need it! I'll take a look through and see if I can find anything so hopefully something will turn up Cheers Kev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clk Posted 14 May , 2020 Share Posted 14 May , 2020 Hi Kev, A couple of near numbers that bracket his KRRC number (all transferred from the ASC) show: A/202710 Diprose Image sourced from Findmypast A/202714 Pearce Image sourced from Findmypast A/202715 Potter Image sourced from Findmypast Regards Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kev1874 Posted 14 May , 2020 Author Share Posted 14 May , 2020 Chris that's amazing thank you, thats gonna save me alot of time! Can I say with a certain degree of certainty that he was transferred with a job lot of ASC men on the 20/08/1917? I'll have a look through the WD and see if I can see any mention of reinforcements around that time. Are all these men from any particular ASC unit or just a general sweep of units? Once again thanks Kev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stiletto_33853 Posted 14 May , 2020 Share Posted 14 May , 2020 (edited) Kev, Looks that way checking the KRRC medal rolls, similar size of batch to earlier ones as well with most going to 11th KRRC. The R.A.S.C. batch covers over 3 pages of the medal roll. Transfer date tie's in new service number wise with the RB as well Re reinforcements, the 11th KRRC received 4 officers and 67 OR's on 21st August 17 and 205 OR's on 29th September 1917. Andy Edited 14 May , 2020 by stiletto_33853 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kev1874 Posted 14 May , 2020 Author Share Posted 14 May , 2020 Andy you're a diamond fella, I've been busy this afternoon so not look into it and here you are with the info Many thanks Kev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 14 May , 2020 Share Posted 14 May , 2020 You will also find this website of great use in understanding regimental numbering: https://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/p/index.html?m=1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kev1874 Posted 14 May , 2020 Author Share Posted 14 May , 2020 Brilliant thanks page bookmarked Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 14 May , 2020 Share Posted 14 May , 2020 Missing Presumed Dead from 11/KRRC in 20th (Light) Division on 30 Nov 1917 strongly suggests a casualty from the German Cambrai counter-attack. Andy and I have posted a good deal of material on this action - some work with the forum search tool should turn them up quite quickly. The ASC 'SS' service number prefix denotes specialist enlistments 'Supply Specials' - see the Mother Site ... Quote SS means that the man was specially enlisted for his trade: in other words, he came from civilian employment in a trade that was of direct value to work in the Supply section: he may have been a clerk, butcher or baker, for example. https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/letter-prefixes-to-british-soldiers-numbers-in-the-first-world-war/ Since he landed in France on 02 Jan 1915, it is probable that he had some specific skill or trade that was in need. Do you know what he did in civvy street? Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kev1874 Posted 15 May , 2020 Author Share Posted 15 May , 2020 14 hours ago, MBrockway said: Missing Presumed Dead from 11/KRRC in 20th (Light) Division on 30 Nov 1917 strongly suggests a casualty from the German Cambrai counter-attack Thanks for the info Mark. Yes I think he was killed in the German counter attack 30th Nov, from the info I've gathered he was B coy, the counterattack started in thier left early morning and overwhelmed them later. I'm trying to pinpoint the extact locations I've got the map references but cant find the right map 14 hours ago, MBrockway said: Andy and I have posted a good deal of material on this action - some work with the forum search tool should turn them up quite quickly. I'll have a look around thanks 14 hours ago, MBrockway said: Do you know what he did in civvy street He is listed on the 1911 census as a labourer at shipyards so nothing skilled as such, unless he trained at something in the 3 years between the census and before the war. Thanks for the help Kev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 15 May , 2020 Share Posted 15 May , 2020 Worth looking at this post on the German counter-attack ... Help please - Rifleman Herbert Thompson, died 30/11/17 and the Mother Site has a useful, if fuzzy, map from the Official History, which shows these localities (near the northern edge) ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kev1874 Posted 15 May , 2020 Author Share Posted 15 May , 2020 (edited) Many thanks there's some useful info in the post you've linked, I've also google the KRRC chronicle and im trying to find an internet copy so I've got some reading to do hopefully! Thanks for the map too its the best I have so far, I'm going to have a look through bgd and div WD's see if I can find anymore. Thanks again for the help. Kev Edited 15 May , 2020 by kev1874 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stiletto_33853 Posted 15 May , 2020 Share Posted 15 May , 2020 Kev, A couple more maps for you, the same as Mark's but not so fuzzy and Gonnelieu 30/9/17. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kev1874 Posted 15 May , 2020 Author Share Posted 15 May , 2020 Cheers Andy, between them and the ones I've found in Brigade WD I should be able to figure out where the companies were on the morning of the 30th. I think I need the 1:20000 of the top map for the map refs I've found, I'm not sure which one I need to be honest the work order I've found in 20th Div WD's is dated 27th Nov and its ordering a strong defensive line being built but talks about M+G squares? Kev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 15 May , 2020 Share Posted 15 May , 2020 (edited) The position sits astride a sheet boundary unfortunately, but these trench maps should do you ... 1:20k Parts of 57c.NE, SE and 57b.NW, SW - Gouzeaucourt: Special Sheet (05 Oct 1917) 1:20k 57C SE (20 Nov 1917) 1:10k 57C SE2 - Gonnelieu (30 Sep 1917) Here's a map to give you the general context. It also has the trench map grid on it. 59 Bde were off the right (East) edge of this sheet to the NE of LATEAU WOOD (also off this map) and withdrew south-westwards onto the map ... I'll see if I can make a better composite, but it means tiling together four maps and I am very low on disk space just now! Mark Edited 15 May , 2020 by MBrockway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kev1874 Posted 15 May , 2020 Author Share Posted 15 May , 2020 And as if by magic there's the map I want!! its one of the links thanks so much Mbrockway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stiletto_33853 Posted 15 May , 2020 Share Posted 15 May , 2020 Any Better parts of 57 N.E., S.E. & 57 N.W., S.W., 24/10/17 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 15 May , 2020 Share Posted 15 May , 2020 Good point! No need to stitch together a composite This crop shows the ground of the Brigade's original position on the ridge extending downwards to the NE from LATEAU WOOD towards Crèvecœur-sur-l'Escaut. Their position left the ridge crest around M.3 and descended N-wards through G.33 to meet the canal in G.27.c Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kev1874 Posted 15 May , 2020 Author Share Posted 15 May , 2020 That's perfect thanks fellas, I'm going to sit down with my pencil in a bit and plot it all out now! Kev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 15 May , 2020 Share Posted 15 May , 2020 Andy's version is newer than the McMaster one I linked to: Edition 2c of 24 Oct 1917 versus Edition 2b of 05 Oct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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