ww1 Tank casualty Albert Edward Barratt Tank Corps 76203S

[arantxa]

Would he have been in a tank battle says Gunner  any info would be great

says 12 th Coy D battalion  died 21/08/1917

[Coldstreamer]

he died of wounds which makes it more of an effort to find out where he was then wounded - local paper would be worth checking

 

First name(s)    Albert Edward
Last name    Barratt
Service number    76203
Rank    Private
Regiment    Tank Corps
Battalion    -
Battalion details    -
Residence    -
Birth place    Walthamstow, Essex
Enlistment place    Walthamstow
Death year    1917
Death day    21
Death month    8
Cause of death    Died of wounds
Death place    France & Flanders
Theatre of war    Western European Theatre
Supplementary Notes    FORMERLY 2/23784, RIFLE BRIGADE.

[arantxa]

thank you on his medal roll it says killed in action do they still say that even though other says died of wounds

[Gareth Davies]

12 Company D Bn moved forward to Bell Vue on 20 Aug in preparation for their attack on 22 Aug. 4 of their tanks were hit by shells in their forward position on 21 Aug 17. He was the only fatality that day.

Edited 13 May , 2020 by Gareth Davies

[arantxa]

Thank you Gareth you certainly know your stuff    can i find out what his tank number or name was any where

 

Thanks

[stiletto_33853]

ex 9th Rifle Brigade, medal rolls under Tank Corps not RB. There is a pension card for him ref: 11/APW/14451. I cannot give you much more detail apart from an approximate enlistment date.

 

Andy

Edited 13 May , 2020 by stiletto_33853

[arantxa]

but why would his medals have his name etc and his rifle brigade number on and not tank corps and number have you seen this before 

 

[arantxa]

so you know what date he went to the tank corps

[stiletto_33853]

Yes, many times I have come across this. How long had he actually been in the Tank Corps. I have several groups of medals where the named Regiment is Rifle Brigade but they had been transferred into other units due to wounds etc, they were usually named after the first unit they served with overseas.

No idea of the date he went to the Tank Corps, maybe one of the tankie's can assist you with that through his number.

 

Andy

Edited 14 May , 2020 by stiletto_33853

[arantxa]

Section numbers from 20 September Battlegraph.

Four tanks with "G" Battalion names are listed as they were taken from "G" Battalion to replace four 12 Company tanks Knocked Out when the Germans shelled Belle Vue on the night preceding the attack. 

The four KO tanks were presumably D41, 2514, "Devil"; D42, 2743, "Daphne*;  D45, 2661, "Destroyer" and D51, 2740. These vehicles were manned by D Battalion’s crews. 

2743 was reciovered at some point as it eventualy ended up on display in Lincoln, this article is also the source of the name "Daphne":

 

[arantxa]

Thank you stilettoe....what part of South England are you...im Eastbourne..i had never come across that before on medals

[delta]

Given his unit and service number, he would have joined D Battalion as it formed in Dec 1916 to Jan 1917.

[arantxa]

thank you delta ..do you think he would have seen action before August 1917  ?  is that an unanswerable question  im after a picture of Tank 9081 Lt Porter and Gladys G42 Lt Lishman though I have one from Imperial war museum site but not great to go with there medals

[delta]

It's possible he was in action at Bullecourt on 3 May but only two sections  (total eight tanks) were available so it is not a certainty 

 

https://sites.google.com/site/landships/home/narratives/1917/battleofmessinesridge/arrasnarratives/12company3may1917

 

Edited 14 May , 2020 by delta

[johntaylor]

We investigated Private Barratt's death while researching 'Deborah and the War of the Tanks' which covers the attack on August 22, 1917. The most likely explanation is that he was fatally wounded when the tanks from No. 12 Company were shelled in their forward position at Bellevue, as mentioned by Gareth above. However the records say only one member of the guard was killed, namely CQMS Harrison McCloy from Belfast, who is now buried in White House Cemetery.

 

The casualty list in the War Diary for D Bn shows CQMS McCloy as the only man killed on August 21. Private Barratt's name appears among the wounded on August 22, when No. 12 Company suffered heavy losses in men and tanks during a largely unsuccessful attack on a series of German strongpoints.

 

Since the CWGC and Soldiers Died in the Great War both say Albert Barratt died on August 21, it seems likely that the War Diary casualty list is slightly incorrect, and that he was indeed wounded at Bellevue. The best chance of finding out any more information is either from his descendants, or from local newspapers in his hometown of Walthamstow.

 

 All the best, John

Edited 15 May , 2020 by johntaylor

[arantxa]

Thank you for all that really useful information it has been so helpful I went to see Deborah with Jean from Biullcourt a good friend on mine many many years ago 

thanks 

 

[johntaylor]

So glad you went to see Deborah in the barn - the new museum is also well worth a visit once we're allowed to travel again!

 

I found one article about Harrison McCloy in the Northern Whig (September 3, 1917), but it's certainly worth searching again for him and Albert Barratt now more newspapers have come online.

 

Incidentally I described CQMS McCloy as a guard because he was one of the group of Tank Corps men left to guard the tanks while they were parked up ready for action the next day, the crews themselves fortunately having been withdrawn for safety.

 

The register of effects shows Barratt's rank as "Gunner" which was often used in the Tank Corps as an alternative to "Private". They seem to have been pretty much interchangeable.

 

All the best, John

 

 

[arantxa]

The casualty list in the War Diary for D Bn shows CQMS McCloy as the only man killed on August 21. Private Barratt's name appears among the wounded on August 22, when No. 12 Company suffered heavy losses in men and tanks during a largely unsuccessful attack on a series of German strongpoints.

 

is that in the war history of the 4th battalion tank corps from the National archives as seems to be a lot of various ones thanks

[johntaylor]

Hi, the casualty list I'm referring to is in the War Diary for D Bn Tank Corps, later 4th Tank Bn, in the National Archives: http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C4553261 

 

You'll see this is broken down into 6 sections and the action of August 22 should be in section 2 (Jan-Aug 1917). However they're all free to download at the moment.

 

The War History of 4th Tank Bn is a brief overview of events prepared as a historical record at the end of the war. In this case it mentions the tanks being shelled at Bellevue but doesn't give any details about casualties. The War History was published as a book in the early 1920s, but there is a typewritten copy in section 6 of the War Diary: http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/browse/r/h/b2e15e3106004dbe83430b658b54958b

 

Hope this is helpful, John

 

 

Edited 16 May , 2020 by johntaylor

[arantxa]

Thanks very helpful

 

[Johnny Reb]

Greetings. I have only just discovered that Gunner Albert Edward Barratt was my Great Uncle. (My grandfather's brother). He was born in Walthamstow and married in 1913. I would love to find out more details about his service.

Also I'm curious as to why people are researching him?

I have the census records for 1899 and 1911 thanks to my sister-in-law. 

[johntaylor]

Hi, that's a great discovery to make and I'm hoping you might be able to add to our knowledge of Gunner Barratt. Most of what we know about his service history is summarised in the earlier messages above, but there's still quite a lot we haven't been able to find out.

 

Re the interest, I'm not sure why arantxa originally raised the question but it seems to relate to his medals - however he's on the Forum quite often and may be able to tell you more. I did some research on him because I was writing a book about one of the tanks in D Battalion called Deborah, which was destroyed during the Battle of Cambrai and later found buried on the battlefield, and is now preserved in a museum at Flesquieres in France.

 

A previous tank with the same number took part in an attack in the Ypres Salient in Belgium on August 22, 1917, so we researched a lot of the D Battalion men who were involved. However as you see from the messages above, we couldn't find out exactly how Gunner Barratt was killed, though it was clearly during the preparations for that attack.

 

I don't know whether you have any information about him in the family (letters, photos etc) but if so it would be great to find out more.

 

All the best, John  

[Johnny Reb]

Hi John. Thanks for the reply. As stated I only discovered about Albert yesterday (thanks to my brilliant sister-in-law who is an avid family history buff). I have now found where he is buried (Boesinghe) and am planning a trip for next year. I will do as you suggest and contact arantaxa. Been a keen military history man all my life but as I'm sure you've guessed by my 'handle' the ACW is my main area; however WW1 and WW2 are high on the list.

 

Best wishes Peter.

[Johnny Reb]

On 13/05/2020 at 16:46, arantxa said:

Would he have been in a tank battle says Gunner  any info would be great

says 12 th Coy D battalion  died 21/08/1917

Hi. I have just discovered that my Great-uncle Albert Edward Barratt was mortally wounded whist serving in the Tank Corps in August 1917. I now know where he lies and am planning a trip to visit the cemetery as soon as conditions allow. Thanks to my sister-in-law's family research I now know quite a bit about him but would like to discover more about his wartime service. Can I ask what is your particular interest in him?

Best wishes

 

Peter Barratt

[johntaylor]

Hi Peter, the best thing is to send him a private message (PM) but I'm not sure if new members can do that, so I've sent him a copy of your message. Hopefully he'll respond soon.

 

All the best, John