Norfolksapper Posted 10 May , 2020 Share Posted 10 May , 2020 Does anybody know if when the Norfolk Yeomanry became the 12th Battalion of the Norfolk Regiment they were rebadged and wore the Norfolk Britannia cap badge or retained their GRV cypher cap badge? thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob carman Posted 11 May , 2020 Share Posted 11 May , 2020 14.01.17. Ordered to retitle as 12 (Norfolk Yeomanry) Bn, Norfolk Regt. 07.02.17. Retitled as 12 (Norfolk Yeomanry) Bn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norfolksapper Posted 11 May , 2020 Author Share Posted 11 May , 2020 Hi Rob thanks for the response. I found some pictures online that suggest they retained the original cypher cap badge after the renaming. Ps you’re a long way from Norfolk, England. regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRC Posted 12 May , 2020 Share Posted 12 May , 2020 On 10/05/2020 at 13:16, Norfolksapper said: Does anybody know if when the Norfolk Yeomanry became the 12th Battalion of the Norfolk Regiment they were rebadged and wore the Norfolk Britannia cap badge or retained their GRV cypher cap badge? Had a check through what I have and and nothing decisive either way. Petres' History of the Norfolk Regiment might have something to say on the subject - it was just the sort of thing he was bothered about - but unfortunately I no longer have access to a copy. 13 hours ago, rob carman said: 4.01.17. Ordered to retitle as 12 (Norfolk Yeomanry) Bn, Norfolk Regt. 07.02.17. Retitled as 12 (Norfolk Yeomanry) Bn. And contemporaneously the other ranks were renumbered into the 320000 - 320999 service number range. According to Wiki the 1/st Norfolk Yeomanry landed on Gallipoli with 25 Officers & 504 men. War Diary shows landed 8th October 1915, and after that the numbers steadily deceased, mainly through sickness. Some would have recovered and come back, but not all. On the their first parade in Egypt after evacuation, on the 31st December 1915, the Battalion strength was 13 Officers and 221 Other Ranks. (Battalion War Diary) Reason for mentioning that is that by the time they were renamed and renumbered in the spring of 1917, only up to 320489 seems to have been a former Territorial Yeomanry man - presumably including men sent out from 2/1st and 3/1st Norfolk Yeomanry . There are gaps in the research I've done so far on the Regiment, but the impression I'm getting is that the rest of the newly renumbered members of 12th Battalion came from Service Battalions or were Special Reservists. I only have a couple with service records I've located so far, but one was recovered wounded and the other recovered ill-heath when they were posted out to back-fill the Norfolk Yeomanry. Which raises the prospect that the 12th Battalion was already more Norfolk Regiment than Yeomanry even when they were defending the Suez Canal in 1916. Thus I come across 12th Battalion man with pictures in the newspapers or on Picture Norfolk who died post 1916 wearing the Yeomanry Cap Badge, but no indication of when the picture was taken, and others wearing the Norfolk Cap Badge, but again no indication of when it was taken. What I don't have is a picture of them in the field, or even a dated studio shot. Would be good if you could post links to the online images you have found. Cheers, Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob carman Posted 12 May , 2020 Share Posted 12 May , 2020 (edited) Norfolk Sapper - Neither Petre (History of the Norfolk Regt) nor Bastin (Norfolk Yeomanry in Peace and War) say anything about uniform changes. Peter - Good info and analysis of 12 Bn numbers. Thank you. Rob. Edited 12 May , 2020 by rob carman spelling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norfolksapper Posted 12 May , 2020 Author Share Posted 12 May , 2020 http://www.rnrm.org.uk/history/history_12.html this is one of the images that I found actually I can’t expand it on a tablet so it’s grainy, but it seems to be the GRV cypher with NCOs arm badge and is apparently dated 1918. I suspect that where available that the GRV was worn but also the Britannia in laurels. Thanks for the most excellent info on numbers. I do own some medals to NY and 12 Btn men but their histories don’t fit with renumbering - one never went overseas and retained his number and was possibly discharged prior to 1917 (as far as I can tell). One was transferred from a Norfolk Service Battalion in 1918 (kia) the other transferred into the Northants Regt with one of their numbers. I do have pictures of the NY defending the Suez Canal but of course they are wearing topees. But once again it’s fascinating so thank you both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norfolksapper Posted 12 May , 2020 Author Share Posted 12 May , 2020 Hi Peter I fished out some info I still had for a man called Charles Back 1st NY 1951 but he went into the 9th Norfolks not sure on the date but was numbered 32001. regards Thanks as well Rob out of interest where does your interest sit is it research or insignia etc? regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRC Posted 12 May , 2020 Share Posted 12 May , 2020 1 hour ago, Norfolksapper said: http://www.rnrm.org.uk/history/history_12.html this is one of the images that I found actually I can’t expand it on a tablet so it’s grainy, but it seems to be the GRV cypher with NCOs arm badge and is apparently dated 1918. Captioned as Arthur Randolf Brett, the related medal index card for Serjeant Arthur Randolph Brett shows him as 320140 Norfolk Regiment, previously 1724 1/1 Norfolk Yeomanry. He fitrst landed at Gallipoli on the 8th October 1915, so with them from the beginning of their time in Theatres of War. Doesn't look like his service records have survived. His 1914/15 Star appears to have been issued with the rank of Private. Still leaves over 12 months in which he could have been promoted Serjeant and pictured in his Norfolk Yeomanry badged uniform. He appears to have survived the war so as the only indication of date is "about 1918". I would suggest it would need a lot more provenance if it was to be used as "Exhibit A" in a case for the retention of the GRV cap badge. 2 hours ago, Norfolksapper said: I fished out some info I still had for a man called Charles Back 1st NY 1951 but he went into the 9th Norfolks not sure on the date but was numbered 32001. Thanks - I hadn't investigated him too closely as the inital core of the datebase was men I'd researched in connection with a local war memorial \ headstone and other Norfolk Regiment men I'd come across from the associated Service Medal rolls and Register of Soldiers effects. With the Covid-19 lockdown I've been trying to catch up on newspaper transcriptions and have been adding the details I uncover about Norfolk Regiment men as I go along. I had tentatively looked at Charles in connection with a 1914/15 Medal Roll and had made a note to myself to come back and check. I thought 32001 might have been an error - neither the National Archive or Ancestry has a Norfolk Regiment 320200 and that is roughtly where 1951 would come in the order of renumbering. Additionally the 31000 to 33399 seemed to be used for men who had been weeded out of home service and support units. However if the VM & BWM Service Medal Roll say 32001 and that he ended up with the 9th Battalion then I'll update my records. Cheers, Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob carman Posted 12 May , 2020 Share Posted 12 May , 2020 2 hours ago, Norfolksapper said: Hi Peter I fished out some info I still had for a man called Charles Back 1st NY 1951 but he went into the 9th Norfolks not sure on the date but was numbered 32001. regards Thanks as well Rob out of interest where does your interest sit is it research or insignia etc? regards Interests: Norfolk Volunteers and Territorials Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norfolksapper Posted 13 May , 2020 Author Share Posted 13 May , 2020 Hi Peter I agree more evidence is needed and I can’t really see that image well at all, the others I’ve found I think are early or post WW1. I used to have a collection of Norfolk Yeomanry postcards etc but I sold it some years back. However I can’t recall having and can’t find any of what I would call later war images that are the NY in F&F. I’m no expert on uniforms but I think of of those later images as men looking a bit more disheveled - the 05 service caps and leather bandolier gone, replaced by 08 webbing, Brodie helmets etc. But if the Norfolk regt cap badge was worn I might have looked at lots of images that are actually NY. The cypher badge was still used on headstones and contained to be worn as a GRVI version but again this is just indicative. I’ll keep looking anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norfolksapper Posted 13 May , 2020 Author Share Posted 13 May , 2020 Hi Peter I fished out some info on a man I have some pictures of Samuel Edwards he was a Norwich man in the NY numbers 1561 and 32008 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norfolksapper Posted 13 May , 2020 Author Share Posted 13 May , 2020 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob carman Posted 14 May , 2020 Share Posted 14 May , 2020 (edited) This group image is in Leeds H (ed) Peace Souvenir Norwich War Record. Jarrold & Sons Ltd, Norwich, 100 pp. There is no publication date anywhere in the book so far as I can tell but it came out soon after the war. The legend says this is 12 Bn home from the war, May 1919. Its not really helpful, although I just about favour it showing the cypher not Britannia. I went through all the images I have of Norfolk Yeomanry and see none from Egypt or Palestine that show Britannia, but I did find a Yeomanry patch with a Norfolk shoulder title. Rob. Edited 14 May , 2020 by rob carman grammar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norfolksapper Posted 15 May , 2020 Author Share Posted 15 May , 2020 That’s great Rob thanks it seems the NY retained their Pagri patch as a battalion flash/patch when out of the desert. Really interesting with the Norfolk shoulder title as oppose to KORR. I agree I think that’s the cypher cap badge. I think what I’ve seen so far suggests the cypher badge was retained. Really appreciate this thanks again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norfolksapper Posted 15 May , 2020 Author Share Posted 15 May , 2020 Hi Gents thanks again for your input I’ll just add these last two images to help anybody else searching. regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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