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The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

Copyright and such


GJW

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Hi,

 

I am starting to put together a small book for sale locally. Does anybody know if there is copyright issues If I use pages from attestations or articles from newspapers etc. I assume there is not given this all 100 years ago and that the information is freely available. Just checking though.

 

Regards,

 

Gerard

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Firstly the law that you need to check is the law as it is in Eire.

 

Many museums, and companies in the UK assert copyright in material that they make available, either freely or for a charge. That extends from say, the UK National Archives, to Ancestry and FMP. if you download from them you are in most cases making a contract with them in which you undertake to comply with their terms.

 

I'm not a lawyer, but do some proper research, and whatever you do, the responsibility will be yours. There are several threads about copyright within the GWF, some very informative, but whether comments made are always relevant to  Irish law is something you need to consider. I think your time would be well spent finding those threads rather than our reworking the material.

 

 

Keith

 

 

Edited by keithmroberts
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I did two such books about 8 years ago and I used lots of clippings and photos from the local newspaper.

Just to be on the safe side I e-mailed the editor and explained what I wanted to do. He replied with three comments.

First he said that all of the servicemens photos had been submitted by their family anyway, and so they had copyright of the photos, not the newspaper. Secondly, he mentioned the 100 year rule. But he also assured me that in any case they would never consider objecting to a book that was commemorating Great War heroes.

 

BillyH.

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Hi Gerard,

 

I seem to recall that the issue was kicked about a lot on the forum a year or so ago, with no definitive conclusion. I was left with the understanding that in the UK the situation is unclear, but that using straight forward copies of the originals available from 3rd parties (such as Ancestry, museums, etc), even if digitally enhanced, probably wouldn't represent a breach of the original copyright  (despite any of their claims to the contrary). Use of the images, without consent could though leave someone open to 'breach of contract'. I think that is why the GWF has adopted  'rules' that say that 3rd party images should be accredited to comply with the legally allowed 'fair use' provisions.

 

I also wonder if a body like Ancestry would really want to pursue the matter with a small organisation such as yours. I know that they host several public images for my family members that I have provided privately to other members.

 

I guess that case law would be needed to establish the position in the UK, but as Keith suggested that might not be the same in your home nation.

 

Regards

Chris

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Thank you Billy and Keith. Not going to go crazy with inclusions but just wanted to check.  Good manners is a must so will contact editors. All funds will be used to help raise some type of monument to the fallen (none current exist). Cheers Billy. 

 

Gerard

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Cheers Chris. I tend to agree with your wisdom. I would always accredit as it is the right thing to do regardless. Thank you for the abbreviated history of what was discussed last year. I am a 'one man show' and happy to take my chances in the most positive of ways :)

 

Gerard

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Gerard - In the UK a lot of institutions etc claim that blanket copyright exists on everything they hold - going back to the Tablets of Stone. Its a sort of cover-all ploy which is easier than defining in detail possible copyright which may relate different  aspects of their holdings. Obviously if you are in Eire you must investigate there - but a useful question to put out in this place would be to ask for examples of litigation which have resulted from the kind of scenario which you set out in your opening post. There is also the interesting question of whether digitalisation of a work out of copyright creates a "new" copyright. Has that been properly tested yet ?

Tom

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10 hours ago, Tom Tulloch-Marshall said:

There is also the interesting question of whether digitalisation of a work out of copyright creates a "new" copyright. Has that been properly tested yet ?

A very important point. Earlier discussions suggested that to make an assertion of  copyright on a reproduction stick,  it might be necessary for the body making the claim to prove that they had actually done something significant to modify the work.

 

As usual the issue it that nobody wants to be the first challenged by more than a solicitor's letter just in case. Major institutions are likely to be reluctant to pursue what might be seen as minor alleged breaches, in case a serious attack was made in court, on their right to claim copyright at all. There's also an old legal tag, "de minimis non curat lex" , but a demonstration of positive intent by contacting sources, and making sure that they are properly credited,  has to be constructive, and in the second case would also minimise any alleged offence.

 

Some website  terms are less restrictive than others, whether their claims are valid or not, so as you identify items that you want to use, it is worth reading the small print of any contract before contacting any organisation.  The big money in copyright, is in issues with  major financial implications, (issuing a pirate edition of a recent popular novel, or stealing an industrial design or a new medicine), and the scale of use is also significant. An intended blockbuster from a major publisher would arguably be of more concern to a corporate than a publication with a small print run.

 

Good luck with your book.

Edited by keithmroberts
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20 hours ago, Tom Tulloch-Marshall said:

"... but a useful question to put out in this place would be to ask for examples of litigation which have resulted from the kind of scenario which you set out in your opening post."

 

Gerard - forgive me for looping back to that, but it would be interesting to see if you had any replies if you asked that question here..

 

Copyright is a bit like trespass, - loads of people have loads of "opinions". In practical (and simple) terms there is a huge difference between "the letter" of copyright law and the way in which copyright holders deal with the use of material on which they hold copyright. The last thing any entity wants to involve themselves with is a law group / firm and petty litigation relating to matters of very little significance. Set up a little factory manufacturing and selling copies of Rolex watches and you will have a problem of some significance. Do what you propose in the opening post and I'd bet a Dollar to a doughnut that you will have absolutely zero of a problem. In fact, if the newspapers you are quoting from still exist (or exist in amalgamated form) then you could well get yourself some free publicity.

 

With regards to the people claiming "new" copyright because they have digitalised an out of copyright work - well I'm sorry but that just sounds daft. Digitalise a first edition of Jane Austen's "Emma" and get yourself fresh copyright on the work. I rather think not.

Tom

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Thank you Tom and Keith. GWF is an oracle of information and my mind is to respectful of all sources as best I can. And yes a print of 750 copies is not likely to appear on anyone's significance radar.

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1 hour ago, Tom Tulloch-Marshall said:

With regards to the people claiming "new" copyright because they have digitalised an out of copyright work - well I'm sorry but that just sounds daft. Digitalise a first edition of Jane Austen's "Emma" and get yourself fresh copyright on the work. I rather think not.

 

Hear, Hear !

 

BillyH.

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Copyright is an absolute can of worms; you are always wrong. But some people take it to stupid extremes.

Some years ago I was involved in a BBC documentary. I tracked down some photos of the railway station (where filming was going to be) in the pre-1914 days. They were postcards sold by some local firm that had long disappeared (even the address had disappeared in the Battle of the Bulge). I got the copies from a man whose hobby was the history of the town.

The BBC were insistent that they get permission to use them from the copyright holder. In the end, a baffled old man signed to say they could use the postcards and signed a copyright release. He, of course, had no rights to anything. But it kept the BBC happy (and they were published in a book as well as on TV).

Fortunately, here there is an organisation run by the city of Luxembourg, which has the official archive of photos dating from the very earliest days. They charge 8 euros for an A4 size photo, and included in the fee is an amount for permission to use. Everyone here heaves a sigh of relief when they can use one of these photos and they don't have to bother about copyright problems.

 

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As has already been said, we've thrashed the subject around several times, with grey areas always remaining. In the past I've mentioned my pragmatic approach:

 

1. Make a reasonable (some might whisper token) effort to identify and contact copyright holders.

 

2. Include at the beginning of the book a statement to the effect that "The author has tried to identify the owners of  copyright of material used in this book, but a century years after origination this has seldom proved possible. Copyright holders are invited to contact the author so acknowledgements can be made in any future edition."

 

3. In many cases, the copyright holder is unlikely to become aware of material being used and if they do are unlikely to be bothered unless the use is substantial. In the case of local newspapers, approaching the editors is a good idea as it can pave the way for a request for a copy of one's book to be reviewed.

 

 

 

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Thanks Guys. Moonraker do I have you permission to use the text in point 2 of your message :)

 

Gerard

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16 minutes ago, GJW said:

Thanks Guys. Moonraker do I have you permission to use the text in point 2 of your message :)

 

Gerard - as an exercise in putting things into context - that's quite good. I'll give you 9.5 / 10 :P

Tom

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23 minutes ago, GJW said:

Thanks Guys. Moonraker do I have you permission to use the text in point 2 of your message :)

 

Gerard

Of course. Other versions may do. Do delete the superfluous "years" - I copied & pasted from the form of words I used back in 2012, then realised that time had passed to the extent that "century" might now be more appropriate, and mis-edited.

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With regard to copyright, I remember about 20 years ago my mother asked me to get some copies made of our family photos so that other relatives could have a copy. When I picked them up from the photographer's studios he had put his studios copyright stickers on the back of all of the copies.  I gave him some much needed advise and donated the stickers back to his studio. 

 

Steve

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  • 4 weeks later...

An interesting thread and it is a pity that the original poster does not appear to have returned with the final outcome after 1 year.

 

The main point of his thread is that the person he complained about is alleged to have taken 4 volumes of 14,000 published names representing the life's work of the complainant's father and himself, then passed this off as original work on multiple occasions in public meetings and in print.  This would annoy any reasonable person and goes way beyond the usual "fair use" we talk abut here.  It would be nice to know the final outcome of the case, or if mediation was reached.

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