EDP - meaning of?

[Errol Martyn]

A member of the AIF is in January 1918 in Egypt recorded on his service record as 'To be E.D.P. SGT.'. He was at the School of Instruction at Zeitoun at the time.

 

Elsewhere on the forum I found an unrelated post suggesting the EDP stands for Extra Duty Pay. On the other hand my man was at one point apparently a Provisional Sergeant, so the 'P' might stand for Provisional - or Pay?

 

Any clarification welcome!

TIA,

Errol

[Errol Martyn]

And an additional query relating to the same man: in April 1918 he is to be 'ER SGT'. Any ideas as to what the ER stands for, please?

TIA,

Errol

[Pompey]

Errol,

ER Sgt is Engineer Sergeant according to the abbreviations used in medal index cards.link below

https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documents/records/abbreviations-in-world-war-one-medal-index-cards-rank.pdf

 

Regards

[Errol Martyn]

Many thanks for ER Sgt, Pompey.

 

I wasn't aware of this later version of TNA's WWI abbreviations list, so thank you also for drawing my attention to it. Their previous version was only about half the size.

 

Cheers,

Errol

[Guest]

Mate,

 

You had me looking but ER Sgt is not Engineer Sgt.

 

I was unsure what, but it was used when the rank of Sgt was not confirmed, see these Light Horse soldiers I have on record.

 

Often the NCO is given this rank of Sgt 

 

Used in support units or jobs that were not Front line units.

 

COX    Jack Nigel    240    Pte    6 LHR    B Sqn C Troop (351) evac to All Saints hosp Malta (deafness) 7-15 to hosp UK 9-15 (G) rtn 3-16 to AProvC Anzac Police Cairo 4-16 to T/Cpl 1-17 att APM Stealing Police duty 6-17 to ER Sgt Palestine LofC Jerusalem 2-18 to cadet OCS Zeitoun 7-18 prom 2/Lt AProvC Cairo 1-19
 

HANDS    Ernest Arthur    846    Dvr    3 LHFA    Driver Tos 10-15 (G) to No1 CTC depot 4-17 to ER Cpl 5-17 att No2 CTC depot 5-17 to ER Sgt LCo/CTC 7-17 to ER CQMS MCo/CTC 1-18 FGCM 24-7-18 for Murder of 2715 Dafadar Fatteh Khan 38th CIH sentenced 7 years PS disch 3-10-18 SNLR forfit medals (A Troop CSqn/5 LH CMF 6 months) 
 

LORD    Charles James    291    Pte    05 LHR    A Sqn (G) to T/Cpl AIF Canteens 10-16 to ER Sgt 12-17 to ER S/Sgt 7-18
 

As to your question about EDP I am unsure but the Extra Duty Pay seams correct.;

 

These also seam to be in non front line units

 

CAMPION    Cameron John    R541    A/Sgt    6 LHR    29R to EDP Sgt reinf camp 10-17 to ER Sgt ATC&DC 3-18 Ex Sgt LH depot Menangle 6 LH Sqn 1917 Ex L/Cpl CCo/3Bn (541) to DCo 1-15 to Cpl 4-15 WIA 25-4-15 R/arm shrapnel at the landing to Sgt 8-15 WIA 6/7-8-15 R/buttock & L/foot bomb at Lone Pine (G) relist married Francis Phillips in Tooting UK 28-11-15 played Wanganui Rugby brothers Leo & Con NZEF
 

JEFFERS    Clarence John    33    Sgt    13 LHR    C Sqn reduced L/Cpl 7-15 WIA 8-12-15 trench feet & frost bite accident at Lone Pine (G) RTA MU frost bite L/foot relist A/Sgt 9R/ICC (R33) to EDP Sgt 4 LHTR 4-17 to ER Sgt 11-17 rtn L/Cpl CSqn/4 LHR 9-18 to UK Leave 3-19 (C Troop CSqn/13 LH CMF later WWII Sqn Ldr RAAF HQ DArm
 

LOGUE    Herbert William    2192    A/Sgt    9 LHR    23R to isol camp 2-17 to EDP Sgt 3 LHTR 2-17 revert to Pte 3-17 tos B Sqn? 5-17 to 3 LHTR 7-17 qual Hotchkiss MG 8-17 att gas school 3-18 rtn 6-18 shown WIA 20-7-18 minor reported WIA 19-7-18 shrapnel wounds (not stated) with two wounded when shelled returning to camp from Abu Tellul rtn 9-18 to ER/Cpl education 5-19 married before emb
 

Sorry but I can't find what these mean for sure but there contex is shown by these examples'

 

Cheers

 

S.B

[Waddell]

1 hour ago, stevebecker said:

Mate,

 

You had me looking but ER Sgt is not Engineer Sgt.

 

I was unsure what, but it was used when the rank of Sgt was not confirmed, see these Light Horse soldiers I have on record.

 

Often the NCO is given this rank of Sgt 

 

Used in support units or jobs that were not Front line units.

 

 

 

I agree with Steve on this one. Several years ago it was explained to me that an 'extra ranks' sergeant with the engineers was a sergeant with the company/squadron who was with them additional to their establishment, possibly for specialist knowledge or training skills they held. I asked about this many years and cannot find the post, which seems to have disappeared in one of the many forum updates.

 

Scott

 

 

 

 

Edited 2 May , 2020 by Waddell
Punctuation.

[Errol Martyn]

Many thanks Steve and Scott.

 

I'll put Engineer Sergeant to one side, then. Scott, so you are saying the ER = Extra Rank (rather than Extra Ranks) Sergeant in this instance?

 

Cheers,

Errol

[MaureenE]

A glossary from the Australian War Memorial website gives

EDP Extra Duty Pay

 

ER as Extra Regimental (First World War rank ie ER/cpl, AIF Order 962)

https://www.awm.gov.au/learn/glossary/e

https://www.awm.gov.au/learn/glossary

 

Cheers

Maureen

[Errol Martyn]

Many thanks Maureene,

 

Extra Duty Pay and Extra Regimental look to be the final and correct answers to my query, then. I've book-marked the AWM abbreviations listing for future reference.

 

Thanks to all once again for your assistance.

 

Cheers,

Errol

[Waddell]

12 minutes ago, Errol Martyn said:

Many thanks Steve and Scott.

 

I'll put Engineer Sergeant to one side, then. Scott, so you are saying the ER = Extra Rank (rather than Extra Ranks) Sergeant in this instance?

 

Cheers,

Errol

 

Hi Errol,

 

I should have been more careful when using the plural there. I understand it as Extra Rank and meant that he was an additional sergeant.

 

I will have a look through some of my notes from several years ago and see if I can find them regarding this. The post I made several years ago dealt with this question, so it is a bit disappointing that I can't find it.

 

Scott  

[Pompey]

It seems that abbreviations are never what the seem !  I have learnt something from this is that never rely on one source for your information and try to get confirmation from elsewhere if you can.  I should have known as 'Local in theatre' abbreviations pop up all the time even in today's operations and a set of initials can mean many things depending on time and place.

 

REgards to all and stay safe.

 

[Waddell]

Errol,

 

Found that thread. It is Extra Regimental (Rank) as identified by the AWM.

 

 

Posts 3 & 5 by Chris Henschke.

 

Scott

 

Edited 3 May , 2020 by Waddell
Added more.

[Guest]

Mate,

 

Yes, my understanding of these were like a Temperary rank given to a soldier for a paciffic job.

 

Used in not front line jobs, like training for a given area?

 

While T/ (Temperary) was used in many units, even front line units, until the rank is confirmed (substantive). That could take some time.

 

So the soldier would be paid the money as a Sgt (while doing the job) and show the rank as Sgt, but not be a Sgt when posted back to there units. When they would revert back to there former rank?

 

Cheers

 

S.B

 

 

 

 

[Fromelles]

I've only just now came across this post, but feel I may be able to add a little more to the subject.

There were numerous changes throughout the war, and pinpointing exactly when changes took effect can be rather difficult.

I provide the following is a general overview - 

Substantive Rank - A Permanent rank confirmed by the approving authority.

Provisional Rank - With the exception of appointments to Reinforcements, promotion to any Non-Commissioned rank was to be on probation for three months. If the services of the NCO was satisfactory during that period the appointment could be confirmed by the CO. If at any time during that period it was apparent that the NCO was undesirable, or if his services were unsatisfactory, the appointment could be withdrawn by the CO. If the CO considered the NCO, though not satisfactory, should be given another trial he could extend the period for a further term not exceeding three months. For pay purposes Provisional rank was the same as substantive rank.

There are numerous examples in the records of Prov/Sgt's being reduced to Cpl, and Prov/Cpl's being reduced to the ranks after failing to meet the desired standards. 

Acting Rank - Initially a paid appointment, NCO's of Reinforcements were deemed to be acting appointments and could be withdrawn at any time if the services of the NCO's concerned were unsatisfactory. The withdrawal of appointment were not be made prior to embarkation without the approval of the OC of the camp in which the men are located, nor during the voyage except with the approval of the OC Troops.

The Acting NCO's would continue to hold such rank while employed with reinforcements until they were absorbed on the establishment of their respective Unit.

Acting ranks were initially paid an 'Extra Duty' payment, but was later replaced by EDP/VO appointments. Acting ranks later (unsure when) ceased to carry additional pay.

Temporary Rank - Used in lieu of permanent rank to fill vacancies within an authorised establishment, and used in place of Officers and NCO's who had become casualties by reason of wounds and sickness or for being seconded for any duty.

Permanent promotions could be made to replace WO's and NCO's Struck off Strength as killed, died, POW, or transferred; in all other instances promotions to replace those struck off could be made temporarily, but if the WO or NCO thus replaced did not return within three months the temporary promotion could then be made substantive. 

Retention of temporary rank was only for the period they actually perform the duties of the position for which the rank was granted, and would cease upon becoming a casualty (except in the cases of those becoming a POW (unless due to his own neglect or misconduct) or those who died of wounds). 

Extra Duty Pay (EDP) - Soldier's who acted as NCO's in Reinforcement Camps (ie. Training Unit and Base Depots) were appointed by the OC Training Camp, were designated EDP/NCO's and reverted to their substantive ranks upon marching out from the camp in which they were appointed, or upon their services at EDP/NCO being no longer required, whichever earlier, also upon evacuation to hospital.

Voyage Only (VO) - Soldiers who acted as NCO's with reinforcements on the voyage from Australia were designated VO/NCO (eg. 'VO Sgt' or 'VO Cpl' as the case may be), and automatically reverted to their permanent grades upon arrival at the Training Unit, or if their services as NCO's being no longer required, whichever was earlier.

VO and EDP appointments could be made only in the rank of Sergeant and Corporal (except as provided in Para. 28 War Financial Regulations, Part III [unfortunately I haven't located a copy]). EDP rank could only be held in the command in which it was granted, and could not be held or granted in 'parent' units.

Where VO and EDP NCO's were appointed, the proportions of one Sergeant for every complete 30, and one Corporal for every complete 20 of the total 'strength of detail' of the draft, Training Unit, or Depot, as the case may be, weren't ever to be exceeded.

The rate of pay was the difference between the soldier's substantive rank and the EDP/VO rank.

Extra Regimental (ER) rank - All promotions to Warrant and Non-commissioned rank to fill authorised establishments within the following Units (and of such other Units and Formations as may be specified from time to time) will be referred to as ER ranks (eg ER Cpl, ER Sgt etc) - 

Headquarters, AIF

Admin Headquarters, AIF Headquarters, AIF Depots in UK

Australian Headquarters, Egypt (except in the case of promotion to Unit Orderly Room Sergeants)

Australian Section, 3rd Echelon, BEF (except in the case of promotion to Unit Orderly Room Sergeants)

Australian Section, 3rd Echelon, EEF

Australian Army Pay Corps

Pay Sergeants

AIF Audit Section

Australian Army Ordnance Corps

Australian Provost Corps

Australian Army Postal Corps

Corps, Divisional and Brigade Headquarters

1st Australian Topographical Section

Intelligence Police, 1st Aust Corps

Australian Corps Salvage Section

Divisional Salvage Companies

DMTS, AIF, Clerical Section

SMO, Australian Base Depots, Havre, Clerical Staff

a soldier who is granted ER rank will only retain it while he continues to hold the appointment for which it was granted, and will revert to his permanent grade or previous substantive rank for the following reasons -

1) services no longer required in the ER rank 

2) march out to join former Unit, or any other Unit, or to a Depot, or to details

3) march out for return to Australia, for any reason other than medical

Soldiers evacuated sick or wounded continued to retain ER rank until posted, after discharging from hospital, to any other Unit or formation. If returned to Australia they'd retain ER rank till discharged from the AIF or they returned to duty overseas. Soldiers taken POW would also retain ER rank.

Cheers,

Dan

Edited 1 April , 2023 by Fromelles

[Errol Martyn]

Many thanks Dan.

A most helpful summary.

Cheers,

Errol