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ww1 tank badge Idetification required please


morrisc8

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This is a metal badge of a ww1 tank 4.5cm, could it be a sleeve badge, there are two holes in it to sew on or screw on something.

  I did google for info but could not find this on the web.

    Thanks for any help.

       Keith

ww1 tank badge 1.jpg

ww1 tank badge back metal.jpg

Edited by morrisc8
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9 minutes ago, morrisc8 said:

This is a metal badge of a ww1 tank 4.5cm, could it be a sleeve badge, there are two holes in it to sew on or screw on something.

  I did google for info but could not find this on the web.

    Thanks for any help.

       Keith

It looks far more detailed than other images of sleeve badges; a sweetheart badge perhaps!

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I have no idea what it is, I haven't seen it before. 

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The holes suggest something screwed to a sign or door, probably for a RTC/RTR unit.  It’s typical of the sort of thing that the British Army often did on signboards, especially at unit guard rooms, where they would be highly polished.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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What do you think this part is that sticks out. Other side of the tank track ? It is well made,  bought from France. Could be old and it does look like it is screwed to something. just under 2 inch long 4.5cm.

 

ww1 tank badge 1 stick out.jpg

ww1 tank badge back metal back stick out.jpg

ww1 tank badge 1.jpg

Edited by morrisc8
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It’s an upper gun barrel that’s become bent.  Representing a Mark IV Tank.  The photo shows a replica but serves to illustrate the gun barrel.

 

48D54D00-9ED8-47CB-B2D1-A46E031E7533.jpeg

Edited by FROGSMILE
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14 minutes ago, morrisc8 said:

Thank you Frogsmile for that. i wonder if i should make it straight again.

 

Nice item, personally I wouldn't attempt to straighten, high risk of it breaking off.

Tony.

Edited by tonydb
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29 minutes ago, tonydb said:

Nice item, personally I wouldn't attempt to straighten, high risk of it breaking off.

Tony.

Think you are right

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1 hour ago, morrisc8 said:

Think you are right


It’s a really super relic and I can imagine it in it’s old use.  It would look really nice presented as a display piece carefully screwed to a piece of wood.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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They are not items of uniform insignia, but it’s not possible to be 100% certain that they’re genuine.  They all appear to have been made using a form of ‘sand casting’, a manufacturing technique that has a long history in India, Pakistan (Sialkot especially) and the Middle East.  The former two countries in particular still have industries that make regalia using that method amongst others.  A lot of the companies formerly provided items for British Imperial institutions and in many cases have old items that can be used as templates to create new casts. It’s not impossible that that is what’s happening here. 

Edited by FROGSMILE
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This is the same seller i bought mine from and he has good bits for sale and has a lot of ww1 for sale. So i think it is original and have not seen any from other sellers

This is what he says about the item. He is french so i had to Google translate .

 Rare battle tank patent 1914 dimensions: 4.5 cm sewing badge on the sleeve of the tunic - 2 fixing holes beautiful condition Look at my other ads - I sell more than 40 years of personal collections - Satisfied or reimbursed, you have 14 days upon receipt of the item to return it if you are not satisfied -

Edited by morrisc8
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18 minutes ago, morrisc8 said:

This is the same seller i bought mine from and he has good bits for sale and has a lot of ww1 for sale. So i think it is original and have not seen any from other sellers.

 

This is what he says about the item.

 Rare battle tank patent 1914 dimensions: 4.5 cm sewing badge on the sleeve of the tunic - 2 fixing holes beautiful condition Look at my other ads - I sell more than 40 years of personal collections - Satisfied or reimbursed, you have 14 days upon receipt of the item to return it if you are not satisfied -


Interesting suggestion that it was sewn on.  I’ve neither seen, nor heard of such a badge, nor do I know of any reference publications referring to one of that design.  It seems a bit suspicious too that the gun barrel on both just happen to be bent in the same way.  Presumably he says the RA gun, which is pierced with holes in a similar way, is also a sew on badge?  Why else the holes on it, if that’s what he says they are.  Yet the holes are only on the bottom of the gun, which means the badge would not sit, it would be too top heavy.  Real metal badges had back loops and were held in place by cotter pins and secured by back plates so that they could be removed when garments were cleaned.  Caveat Emptor!

Edited by FROGSMILE
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On 30/04/2020 at 17:00, GWF1967 said:

It looks far more detailed than other images of sleeve badges

 

Cloth arm badges are vague, yet just to say large-ish metal sleeve badges are/ were used in the RTR.

 

Issue 267 of The Formation Sign - a Tank Corps/ RTR special - relates that regimental police wore a metal tank on a brassard, with letters and rank also metal.

 

Not the same tank of course, yet the size seems about right. The image doesn't scan well, but the tank does seem to be relatively detailed. Not dated, but the sideburns suggest 1960s/ 1970s. However, you would expect it to be fixed with lugs or blades, not sewing. Also the countersinking in the original suggests screws.

 

All that said, of all the insignia featured in The Formation Sign 267, there is no tank shown at all anything like the OPs badge.

 

Cheers,

 

GT.

 

PS/ The seller having multiple examples is a red flag generally.

 

 

RTR Brassard.jpg

Edited by Grovetown
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[ PS/ The seller having multiple examples is a red flag generally. ]

  He only had two for sale and i bought one and i have not seen any others like this for sale by anyone other than him. He has not listed any more.

  If there were a large amount coming onto the market then it could be a fake, i did not pay to much for it, so i think it is original.

   Keith

 

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OK.

 

If you come across a copy of the July 2017 Formation Sign (Military Heraldry Society), a 48-page special dedicated solely to Tank Corps/ RTR insignia, you won't find it - or anything like it - in there. So 99.99% not uniform, as they would almost certainly know about it.

 

Cheers,

 

GT.

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The photo of the RTR Corporal shows a regimental policeman outside the guardroom in Aliwal Barracks in Tidworth in the 1970s.  The badge was secured by metal loops and a cotter pin.  Badges were not sewn on for the reasons that I’ve explained.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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I am sorry to say @Grovetown and @FROGSMILE but you are both wrong. The black jumper with black epaulette slides with the RTR colours but no other additions means that this photo is post summer 1993. And the other clue is that the man pictured is a good chum of mine.

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2 hours ago, Gareth Davies said:

I am sorry to say @Grovetown and @FROGSMILE but you are both wrong. The black jumper with black epaulette slides with the RTR colours but no other additions means that this photo is post summer 1993. And the other clue is that the man pictured is a good chum of mine.


Yes I see what you mean now Gareth.  I remember personally visiting Aliwal Barracks in the 70s and the black jumpers were still worn with the ‘mud, blood, and green fields’ flashes, but the main thing I’d forgotten was the different coloured battalion tabs on the shoulder straps for 1st to 4th RTR.  Also I think that they were still wearing black coveralls with coloured cravats.  Main point was to clarify the nature of the metal arm badges.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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14 hours ago, Gareth Davies said:

I am sorry to say @Grovetown and @FROGSMILE but you are both wrong. The black jumper with black epaulette slides with the RTR colours but no other additions means that this photo is post summer 1993. And the other clue is that the man pictured is a good chum of mine.

 

Ha! Can't be more defintive than that!

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On 05/05/2020 at 20:41, FROGSMILE said:

Rare battle tank patent 1914 dimensions

What does  that mean?

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1 minute ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

What does  that mean?


I don’t know, it wasn’t me that said it Dai.

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