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The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

Coldstream Guards


Phill Jones

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Hi , i attach a photo of a shoulder title for the Coldstream Guards , i am wondering about the Rosette , please can anyone tell me if the rosette was typical to all C G Battalions ? the owner of this one served with the 4th Battalion . Also can anyone tell me the significance of the Rosette . 

 

Thank you Phill Jones 

Cook M Shoulder Title.jpg

Edited by Phill Jones
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Yes, in 1914 that was indeed the configuration of the Coldstream Guards gilding metal shoulder title as worn by all battalions.  By the end of 1916 it had changed to a cloth shoulder title formed from white woven worsted thread letters on scarlet wool felt.  The Rose is that of Tudor England, and in its usage by the regiment has appeared in red enamels and also silver bullion wire. It was also worn on the shoulder strap of the Coldstream Guards scarlet full dress tunic in white worsted embroidery.
 

A1EC3DC1-4B8F-4DC2-8606-A923A485B3A4.jpeg

76436AF2-393D-429E-9F20-0D66654063F7.jpeg

95E6EA3C-CBBB-4B9E-BDD8-7E5D603A12DB.jpeg

1D17E574-ABDF-46F0-B382-43456A1D200D.jpeg

8C66E500-2BE6-4403-BEE2-DC95AE3295E9.jpeg

Edited by FROGSMILE
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Thank you very much for your reply. 

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An impressive array of very impressive Guardsmen Frogsmile.  Interesting to see that the gilding metal title survived in use in that configuration until at least 1918 if the first photo in your reply is anything to go by (possible the third also).

 

Tom K

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1 hour ago, Tom K said:

An impressive array of very impressive Guardsmen Frogsmile.  Interesting to see that the gilding metal title survived in use in that configuration until at least 1918 if the first photo in your reply is anything to go by (possible the third also).

 

Tom K


Yes I think it was the popular form when at home Tom, as the photos that you identified were.  Apparently the cloth titles were adopted in the field by most of the Guards Division in F&F, probably because the metal titles tended to snag on web equipment shoulder straps.  Bearable before the war, when FSMO was just an occasional requirement, but less so once it became the standard order of dress when moving to and from the trenches.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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any idea who the MM winner is ?

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On 29/04/2020 at 11:50, FROGSMILE said:

Yes, in 1914 that was indeed the configuration of the Coldstream Guards gilding metal shoulder title as worn by all battalions.  By the end of 1916 it had changed to a cloth shoulder title formed from white woven worsted thread letters on scarlet wool felt.  The Rose is that of Tudor England, and in its usage by the regiment has appeared in red enamels and also silver bullion wire. It was also worn on the shoulder strap of the Coldstream Guards scarlet full dress tunic in white worsted embroidery.
 

 

76436AF2-393D-429E-9F20-0D66654063F7.jpeg

 

 

Thomas Whitham here wearing an unsual SD - no rifle patches as with the Simplified, yet with pleated breast pockets - unlike the Simplified.

 

Cheers,

 

GT.

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2 hours ago, Grovetown said:

 

Thomas Whitham here wearing an unsual SD - no rifle patches as with the Simplified, yet with pleated breast pockets - unlike the Simplified.

 

Cheers,

 

GT.


If he wasn’t a stock size there was a regulation whereby the battalion master tailor and his team would make the jacket bespoke, but of course there’s no way of knowing if that’s the case here.

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9 hours ago, Grovetown said:

 

Thomas Whitham here wearing an unsual SD - no rifle patches as with the Simplified, yet with pleated breast pockets - unlike the Simplified.

 

It's possible they are false pleats, ie it started life out as a standard Simplified jacket, but had "pleats" added made from scraps of khaki serge to make it look more like the standard SD jacket. It's more commonly seen on examples of the later WW2 made Economy versions of the same:

 

86) Original British Army 1922 Pattern Service Dress Jacket Economy Pat 1943

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6 hours ago, Andrew Upton said:

 

It's possible they are false pleats, ie it started life out as a standard Simplified jacket, but had "pleats" added made from scraps of khaki serge to make it look more like the standard SD jacket. It's more commonly seen on examples of the later WW2 made Economy versions of the same:

 

 


I would agree with you if I could see seaming or puckering on the edge of the left pocket pleat as we look, but I don’t think it’s the case on this occasion.

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14 hours ago, Andrew Upton said:

 

It's possible they are false pleats, ie it started life out as a standard Simplified jacket, but had "pleats" added made from scraps of khaki serge to make it look more like the standard SD jacket. It's more commonly seen on examples of the later WW2 made Economy versions of the same:

 

Agree this seems entirely plausible, not least as one can imagine the Guards having an aversion to Simplifieds. And much likelier than a tailor running up a non-pattern jacket from scratch over a sizing issue, although with VCs anything is possible I suppose.

 

Cheers,

 

GT.

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19 hours ago, Grovetown said:

 

Agree this seems entirely plausible, not least as one can imagine the Guards having an aversion to Simplifieds. And much likelier than a tailor running up a non-pattern jacket from scratch over a sizing issue, although with VCs anything is possible I suppose.

 

Cheers,

 

GT.


It’s nothing to do with likelihood.  It was a matter of routine, in particular for Foot Guards battalions. For NCOs above the rank of Colour Sergeant quite a lot of uniform was made bespoke as a matter of clothing regulation, although less so with service dress, except when fitting for outsizes.  This was in addition to making up odd items required by the commanding officer and fellow SNCOs of the master tailor, who when the battalion was in the line generally stayed with the RQMS and transport at the battalion rear echelon.

 

As for the jacket concerned we know from details in past posts that there were the occasional odd hybrid jackets as mentioned by Andrew in his initial comment.  The bottom line in this case is that we don’t know the origin of the jacket.  I don’t think that pleats have been added in this case as there are none of the tell tale signs of sewing techniques that I would expect to see.

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