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Remembered Today:

what level of uniform is this


Maggie May

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Can someone tell me what level of  uniform this is please I think its navy I believe he is in some higher up rank due to this uniform which the stripes on the sleeve makes me think this  Also with all the medals he has .I Have no idea of year it was taken but think round 1890/1900's .  it was found in storage by a cousin in Scotland and no family member knows who he is there is  no name on the back of it . It has to be a relative as can  see he looks a bit like my Father  and most of his brothers served in the navy and their father in the 1861 . Its probably going to be a hard job to see where he fits in and going to be challenge I know this but I think its such a lovely photo it deserves better then being  in storage .I have asked if anyone has the medals  as that could give a clue  but family say they have never seen them. the photo was on a wall of my cousin in the 1940's so it has to be family relative . Any help or advice would be much appreciated 

 1 MYstery man.jpg

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He is an officer of the navy, rank Commodore (denoted by the 2 inch stripe). 

 

The photograph would have been taken probably after the war ended as it appears he is wearing the 3 war medals which were not totally issued until after the war.

Also he is wearing the decoration of either MBE or OBE, would suggest the latter which was generally awarded to officers. This decoration was not instituted until

1917, giving further credence to the photo being taken after the war ended.    

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55 minutes ago, ForeignGong said:

The fact the OBE / MBE is separate would suggest he had just received it as it is not yet mounted with the others.

Perhaps taken immediately after the investiture?

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Thanks guys for this info what would he of received  these medal for would it be for what he was doing , what actually does an officer do . Had looked at a family members brother where I thought he could fit in but when looked at his war record see he was a cook , he couldn't get this ranking if a cook could he? 

My Grandfather served in the Egypt Suden Battle mid 1880s and five sons  joined the navy and one killed at the battle of Jutland on the indefatigable but this mystery man doesn't fit into any of these at all at all. .   it is interesting to know  this photo  was not taken till after the war .

Tell me is there a place that have these photos on record so could find his name or is this impossible ?

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Commodore is a pretty senior officer, right between captain and rear admiral, so definitely not a cook. Perhaps he'd been the captain of one of your grandfather's ships?

 

The basic war medals, just for service (there's another one on the right that I don't recognise).

 

The OBE, just as now, for general high performance, but not a gallantry medal.

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1 minute ago, Uncle George said:

Perhaps the medal far right is the China War Medal (1900).

Naval Long Service and Good Conduct Medal.  Pete.

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Doubt if we are looking at the China Medal, if so, based on the order of precedence for campaign medals, it would appear before the trio.  As it is after the trio we are talking about another campaign medal (I can't relate one to the ribbon) or a Long Service award (again based on the order of precedence) as Pete suggests.  That would mean considerable service as an enlisted man at some point.  A good clue - there can't be many Commodore's with such a history.

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Hello Maggie,

This Officer is not a Commodore but rather a Lieut(S) - Supply branch. You can just make out the white Supply branch cloth between his 2 gold lace stripes on his sleeve.

 

He appears to be wearing a Frock coat as his dress uniform. I am estimating sometime in 1930's which would tie in with the MBE ribbon change.

 

He would have joined as a Supply branch rating prior to 1WW, then Warranted as a Warrant Cook, Steward, Writer, Storesman, whatever his rate was prior to Warrant Officer, then subsequently promoted to Commissioned rank, then Lieut(S).

 

His last medal is definitely the RN Long service medal (George V). He likely rec'd this medal post war, Warrant officers could not be awarded the LS medal, so he earned it prior to promotion to Warrant rank. He required 15 yrs adult service for the RN LS.

 

Very nice photo!

Thanks for posting,

Bryan

Edited by RNCVR
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His decoration -  its either an MBE or an OBE, cannot distinguish which from the photo, but my guess would be MBE due to his rank - Lieut (S) not senior enought to warrant award of OBE.

 

Thanks,

Bryan

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2 minutes ago, RNCVR said:

This Officer is not a Commodore but rather a Lieut(S) - Supply branch. You can just make out the white Supply branch cloth between his 2 gold lace stripes on his sleeve.

 

He appears to be wearing a Frock coat as his dress uniform. I am estimating sometime in 1930's which would tie in with the MBE ribbon change.

 

He would have joined as a Supplu branch rating prior to 1WW, then Warranted as a Warrant Cook, Steward, Writer, Stoeman, whatever his rate was prior to Warrant Officer, then subsequently promoted to Commissioned rank, then Lieut(S).

 

Very nice photo!

Thanks for posting,

Bryan

 

Thanks RNCVR (connect post #2).  Your explanation makes a lot of sense and is indeed an education! 

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His dress epaulettes(what he is wearing on his shoulders) - are not really clear in the photo the way the photographer has placed him, but this is what he would be wearing...

 

Thanks Tulloch!  Took me a few mins to figure out his sleeve lace but  its fairly obvious as I have collected these for well over 50 yrs.

 

Best ....Bryan

Lieut.military.JPG

Military Lieut endview.JPG

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3 hours ago, Maggie May said:

Thanks guys for this info what would he of received  these medal for would it be for what he was doing , what actually does an officer do . Had looked at a family members brother where I thought he could fit in but when looked at his war record see he was a cook , he couldn't get this ranking if a cook could he? 

My Grandfather served in the Egypt Suden Battle mid 1880s and five sons  joined the navy and one killed at the battle of Jutland on the indefatigable but this mystery man doesn't fit into any of these at all at all. .   it is interesting to know  this photo  was not taken till after the war .

Tell me is there a place that have these photos on record so could find his name or is this impossible ?

 

Maggie,

your relative could well have been a Cook - Cooks were part of the Supply branch.  A Cook could definitely have achieved Warrant, & later Commissioned rank, but he would have to be smart, excellent at his trade, educated(at least a 1st class Education certificate), & recommended by successive Captain's of ships he served on, for advancement to Warrant rank.  It was not common but it did happen, it took a rating with ambition,desire, & drive to achieve Warrant rank.

He would have been Warranted as a Warrant Cookery Officer, then a Commissioned Cookery Officer, then finally, when this photo was taken,

a Lieutenant(S).

 

Too bad you dont have a name (but this is normal, I have many of these dress uniform Officer portraits that are unidentified) then you could obtain his RN Service Records from the ADM 188 & 196 series at the NA.

 

Best wishes! Bryan

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& this is what his Lieut(S)sleeve lace would have looked like, but minus the (vertical) 3 button dress gold slash, that was worn on his best dress uniform.

 

 

Lace,sleeve.supply.JPG

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Depending when he was warranted then the officer record might still be with MOD (I think he'd have had to have got the warrant by 1917 to appear in the records TNA holds for officers). His record as a rating should be available though, in ADM 188 and then potentially ADM 362 and ADM 363 (again depending exactly when he advanced to warrant rank). These records are free to download at the moment, so it would be worth having a hunt around.

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1 hour ago, David_Underdown said:

Depending when he was warranted then the officer record might still be with MOD (I think he'd have had to have got the warrant by 1917 to appear in the records TNA holds for officers). His record as a rating should be available though, in ADM 188 and then potentially ADM 362 and ADM 363 (again depending exactly when he advanced to warrant rank). These records are free to download at the moment, so it would be worth having a hunt around.

 

Sounds great David but to do that his name is required!

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gosh so much for me to take in on all this and each comment is so positive . I too wish I had a name for him and working on this  now to place him .it has to be a connection of my uncle William Henry Birch 1885 in Plymouth and then settled in Scotland  with his wife mabel Stemp . As it was  their son that had this  photo on the wall . A cousin thinks its a Thomas Stemp b 1894 record number 5351 . He was the cook 

so far this all we have come up with  but think the dates too dont match .. Why cant   people  put names on photos it would make it so much easier to trace these mystery people .

https://www.ancestry.com/interactive/60522/47392_adm_363_460_150_0001?pid=920805

 

have you got the site TNA  site David you speak about  or can I get it from google as worth a look and will put  in all my uncles  names that  served in the navy to see . I may get a shock if I do . I will let you know how it goes.

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just so I get this right when searching what dates do you think my mystery man could of served  in the navy ?  up  to 1917 of further back or later 

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Maggie, I would estimate he came in just prior to 1WW or during war, if this photo was taken in mid 1930's.

I would also guess he was Warranted sometime in the 1920's.  He does not look that old in the photo, perhaps in his mid to lates 30's.

 

Cannot assist you in regards Ancestry, Find My Past etc as dont have subscription to those sites.

 

Best of luck!  Be sure nice to ID this chap!

Bryan

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A cousin thinks its a Thomas Stemp b 1894 record number 5351 . He was the cook 

 

If this is him then that 5351 might be his ON (Official Number) - being a Cook it would be prefixed by letter L, thus L-5351.

An ON like this means he entered the RN post 1 Jan 1908 when the numbering system changed to those branch letter designations.

 

So if a member has a subscription to one of the genealogy sites he\she might run this name & number in the ADM 188 series & see if a file comes up for him.

If Thomas Stemp was born 1894 then his RN Adult service commenced on his 18th birthday, in 1912.  This means his RN LS medal would have been awarded in 1927.

He would have to have been Warranted sometime after 1927.

 

Best...Bryan

Edited by RNCVR
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HI Bryan this is interesting my cousin  still thinks its him even though a cook there are other Stemps on the site to check . 

I dont know what the big O is on the top of copy can you tell me ? I have had to do it in two pieces as couldnt get it work any other way  the dates do fit for this guy I must admit this .

 

cheers

 Maggie .

record 1..png

record 2.png

oh its big D not an O I see

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Maggie this Thomas Stemp is not the Officer in the photo. This rating only made Leading Cook & was released in that rate. No indication on this record that he was subsequently Warranted.

 

I think the D in the circle signifies Devonport Port division.

 

This is his post 1929 record, he will have his initial CS record in the ADM 188 series.

 

Best....Bryan

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