Patrick Kearney

[Kathleen McGovern]

Hoping to find information on my Grandad 

who was in one of the Irish regiments connected to Britain 

He stayed  in barracs in India were my uncle Patrick was born and then he stayed in barracs in Kilkenny where my Father was born Edward .. My Grandmothers  maiden name was Murphy 

My Grandad was Patrick Kearney 

his uniform is in the museum in Collins Barracs .Its red with 3 stripes on the right arm . I would love any information You may have He fought against the Zulus .. 

regards .. Kathleen He died in Dublin 

he was given a house on his return to Ireland in Abbyfield Killester .. 

[Margaretnolan]

1 hour ago, Kathleen McGovern said:

Hoping to find information on my Grandad 

who was in one of the Irish regiments connected to Britain 

He stayed  in barracs in India were my uncle Patrick was born and then he stayed in barracs in Kilkenny where my Father was born Edward .. My Grandmothers  maiden name was Murphy 

My Grandad was Patrick Kearney 

his uniform is in the museum in Collins Barracs .Its red with 3 stripes on the right arm . I would love any information You may have He fought against the Zulus .. 

regards .. Kathleen He died in Dublin 

he was given a house on his return to Ireland in Abbyfield Killester .. 

 

Kathleen, was your grandfather born in Waterford?

[corisande]

12 hours ago, Kathleen McGovern said:

Abbyfield Killester

 

There is a thread on the Forum about Abbeyfield Killester

[corisande]

Kathleen

 

The problem here is that there are too many possibilities. You need to give us more information to work on, otherwise we are shooting in the dark

 

As I understand it

 

1. Your grandfather father is Patrick Kearney. He married a Miss Murphy. He died in Dublin

    The questions are when was he born, when did he marry, and when did he die. It is easy for us to get online certificates with those dates, which yield more clues

    There is a Patrick Kearney born in India in  25 May 1865, son of John & Ursula

 

2. He served in an Irish Regiment and had a son Patrick born in India. Patrick was your uncle

    Do you know when Patrick was born or when he died

 

3. He had another son Edward born in Ireland at Kilkenny. This was your father.

   Do you know when he was born

    

4. There is an online Militia Record of a Patrick who joined the South Wales Borderers. And went on to be a SWB Regular, He was born in Ballyduff, Waterford in 1865. There are 56 Patrick Kearney born in Ireland in that year, so to find one born in Ballyduff would take a bit of effort - and he may have lied to get into the army, so the date may not be right

 

5. If it is his uniform in Collins Barracks, what have the Barracks Museum told you about the owner. They must have soe records on it´s owner and its history

 

I am afraid without more details it is a guessing game, with the details we may be able to help

 

As this thread has nothing to do with the Connaught Rangers in 1911 census, I will ask mods to move to a better place in the forum

[DavidOwen]

Split into a new thread.

 

Good luck with the research.

[Kathleen McGovern]

On 26/04/2020 at 09:31, corisande said:

Kathleen

 

The problem here is that there are too many possibilities. You need to give us more information to work on, otherwise we are shooting in the dark

 

As I understand it

 

1. Your grandfather father is Patrick Kearney. He married a Miss Murphy. He died in Dublin

    The questions are when was he born, when did he marry, and when did he die. It is easy for us to get online certificates with those dates, which yield more clues

    There is a Patrick Kearney born in India in  25 May 1865, son of John & Ursula

 

2. He served in an Irish Regiment and had a son Patrick born in India. Patrick was your uncle

    Do you know when Patrick was born or when he died

 

3. He had another son Edward born in Ireland at Kilkenny. This was your father.

   Do you know when he was born

    

4. There is an online Militia Record of a Patrick who joined the South Wales Borderers. And went on to be a SWB Regular, He was born in Ballyduff, Waterford in 1865. There are 56 Patrick Kearney born in Ireland in that year, so to find one born in Ballyduff would take a bit of effort - and he may have lied to get into the army, so the date may not be right

 

5. If it is his uniform in Collins Barracks, what have the Barracks Museum told you about the owner. They must have soe records on it´s owner and its history

 

I am afraid without more details it is a guessing game, with the details we may be able to help

 

As this thread has nothing to do with the Connaught Rangers in 1911 census, I will ask mods to move to a better place in the forum

Both my grandparents parents and uncle are buried in a family plot in Glasnevin cemetery ( st Patrick’s plot ) My Grandparents born in the late 1800 

One of them died in 1936 

and one survived by 15 yrs ?? 

My Dad dob .. 19 th / 10 / 1910 died 1986 

my mother dob 25 th /12 / 1916 died 1966 

my uncle dob ..... 1907/08 .. died 1979 

my grandmother was a headmistress in a school in Waterford Maiden name ..Wooden??  ?? .. My father born in Kilkenny 

my uncle in What is noe Pakistan 

bith while my grandparents lived in lodgings barracs provided by army .. 

my grandfather played the bugle in the army ., 

[Kathleen McGovern]

On 25/04/2020 at 22:37, Margaretnolan said:

 

Kathleen, was your grandfather born in Waterford?

Will have to find that out his Mother was s school headmistress in Waterford

miss Wooden ???  

[kildaremark]

Okay, so, while Kathleen is making it hard for us to get the basic details, for a start we have:

 

Edward Michael Kearney, born to Patrick Kearney and Mary Anne Cleere 19 October 1910. Patrick is a Militia Sergeant in Kilkenny Barracks.

 

 

There's a family tree on line with Patrick Kearney born Kilkenny 1878-1951 with his wife Mary Ann Cleere died 1936.

 

Short Service record for Patrick Kearney on FMP enlisted 1896 in Royal Irish Reg No. 2151

 

Mark

Edited 13 May , 2020 by kildaremark
Further info

[Margaretnolan]

2 hours ago, kildaremark said:

Okay, so, while Kathleen is making it hard for us to get the basic details, for a start we have:

 

Edward Michael Kearney, born to Patrick Kearney and Mary Anne Cleere 19 October 1910. Patrick is a Militia Sergeant in Kilkenny Barracks.

 

 

There's a family tree on line with Patrick Kearney born Kilkenny 1878-1951 with his wife Mary Ann Cleere died 1936.

 

Short Service record for Patrick Kearney on FMP enlisted 1896 in Royal Irish Reg No. 2151

 

Mark

 

Mark

 

There is a Patrick Kearney 6225 4th Royal Irish Regiment born 1879 in Waterford. Details from Kilkenny Families in the Great War.

 

This looks like the family on the census in 1911

Not 100% sure it is the same Patrick Kearney that Kathleen is looking for.

 

Margaret

 

 

 

[corisande]

On 25/04/2020 at 21:40, Kathleen McGovern said:

My Grandad was Patrick Kearney 

his uniform is in the museum in Collins Barracks .Its red with 3 stripes on the right arm . I would love any information You may have He fought against the Zulus .. 

regards .

 

Kathleen

 

Have you asked the museum for information on that uniform. It would seem that the uniform has the key to its owner

[Kathleen McGovern]

43 minutes ago, corisande said:

 

Kathleen

 

Have you asked the museum for information on that uniform. It would seem that the uniform has the key to its owner

 

43 minutes ago, corisande said:

 

Kathleen

 

Have you asked the museum for information on that uniform. It would seem that the uniform has the key to its owner

No I havnt as closed at moment One if my brothers left it in and did research .. 

but wanted to charge us for the information so I decided as I have time now to try find out .. I will visit when museum opens up again .. 

[corisande]

In an effort to get some logic into this. The picture seems to be that Kathleen´s brother has researched the family but that she is unwilling to pay him for the information .

 

So what do we know

 

1. Her grandfather father is Patrick Kearney.  KildareMark has found that there's a family tree on line with Patrick Kearney born Kilkenny 1878-1951 with his wife Mary Ann Cleere died 1936.  Kathleen said  that  "One of them died in 1936 and one survived by 15 yrs ??"  So that seems, as far as an Ancestry Tree can be relied on, to be the Grandparents

 

2. You say that your father was born 19/Oct / 1910 &  died 1986 . The Irish GRO records show Edward Michael Kearney, born to Patrick Kearney and Mary Anne Cleere 19 October 1910. Patrick is a Militia Sergeant in Kilkenny Barracks. So that is herfather

 

3. Kathleen say that her uncle was born in India about 1907/1908

 

4. KildareMark has found a Short Service record for Patrick Kearney on FMP enlisted 1896 in Royal Irish Reg No. 2151

 

5. Margaretnolan has found a Patrick Kearney 6225 4th Royal Irish Regiment born 1879 in Waterford. Details from Kilkenny Families in the Great War.

 

6. The family are in 1911 census, Patrick is a Sgt in R Irish Reg, and his birth is circa 1879 in Waterford. This is the right family from all we know. And can be taken as a solid base for research

 

 

So I conclude that the grandfather was

Patrick Nolan, b1879 in Waterford, and 6225 in R Irish Reg and he is the man that needs research to see his service record

His MIC indicates that he served in WW1 and got the Pair. There are also pension records, and Boer War information on Ancestry

[michaelpi]

but that she is unwilling to pay him for the information .

 

No

 

It's the museum who want to charge for information ( i.e. undertaking the research)

[Kathleen McGovern]

No it’s my brother who wants payment .

The Grandfather is Patrick Kearney 

Thankyou for all the information todate .. 

[corisande]

OK here is what you need to know about Patrick Kearney b Waterford circa 1879. You could always bill you brother for it

 

1879 Born Waterford. Father was Patrick

 

1897 Nov 8 Aged 18years and 6 months enlisted in P Irish Militia. His address was Grady´s Yard, John St, Waterford. He was a waiter at the Imperial Hotel, Waterford

 

1897 Dec 28.  Attested to R Irish in Ireland. He had previously been in 4th Batn R Irish Militia

His father was Patrick of Portetell, Dublin (difficult to read). And he had brothers Michael & Edward of Gradys Yard, Waterford

 

1907 Feb 12. Married in Karachi to Mary Anne Chase/Cleere. I have correct the date to 1907 from Mormon records and for the child born in 1907

 

1907 Dec 20 Son Patrick Joseph born Rawlpindi

 

1910 Oct 9 Son Edward born Kilkenny

 

1919 Mar 16. discharged on pension for bad teeth, deafness and debility. He was a CQMS. This gives his record

 

 

 

Edited 14 May , 2020 by corisande
added Militia date & corrected marriage date

[FROGSMILE]

For Kathleen:  The (original) Royal Irish Regiment was an infantry regiment that traced its origins back to the British Civil Wars (1639-51), but was officially formed in 1684. After 250 years' service, it was disbanded in 1922 on the establishment of the Irish Free State.  
 

I’ve always felt rather sorry for this regiment because although the most senior Irish infantry regiment by far, and with a very fine history, it has almost been forgotten.  My take on this sad situation is that it can largely be put down to two factors; first it was not showy, or particularly fashionable, and unlike other Irish regiments has no association dedicated to its memory.  Secondly, and more significantly, in 1996 the British Army amalgamated it’s remaining Irish line infantry regiment with the auxiliary Ulster Defence Regiment, and in a complete departure from original thought, named the resulting regiment the Royal Irish Regiment.  This has caused significant confusion when anyone unfamiliar with the British Army carries out research online. 
 

The original Royal Irish Regiment (that of your forebear) had for a period been the 18th in seniority, at a time when the British Army had 109 regiments of ‘foot’ (meaning infantry).  From 1881 the regiment had, in addition to its long standing two regular battalions (each of close to 900 men and officers), another two battalions of auxiliary soldiers known as Militia, the 3rd Battalion formed from the earlier North Tipperary Militia, and the 4th Battalion, formed from the Kilkenny Militia.  Most of the militiamen were part time citizen soldiers, but there was a small group of permanent staff formed to maintain a structure for their unit within the barracks, and these men were regulars or ex-regulars, like your forebear, who were posted in , or engaged to do duty.

The regimental headquarters and training depot was in Kilkenny Barracks from 1881 until disbandment in 1922.  In 1914, when WW1 began, the 1st Battalion was based at Nasirabad, in India, and the 2nd Battalion were at Devonport (now Plymouth), in England.  The 3rd Battalion was now called the ‘Special Reserve’ Battalion, and the 4th Battalion ‘Extra Reserve’ and these two units mobilised and began their role of housing and training reserves and new recruits as reinforcements for the regular battalions, while at the same time carrying out some local, home defence duties.
 

You can read more about the regiment’s fine history, here (click on the link): https://www.britishempire.co.uk/forces/armyunits/britishinfantry/rir.htm

 

Afternote:  I’m pleased to have learned that there is now a 18th Foot Royal Irish Regiment and South Irish Horse Association (founded in 2010, the last of the old Irish regiments to regain an association).  I hope that it will endure.

 

 

Edited 15 May , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[corisande]

2 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

4th Battalion, formed from the Kilkenny Militia

 

You are a man that knows about these things. Could Patrick Kearney have served in India with at Militia in 1897 (or earlier) He married in India in  Feb 1897 and was back in Ireland by Dec to enlist in the Colours

[FROGSMILE]

33 minutes ago, corisande said:

 

You are a man that knows about these things. Could Patrick Kearney have served in India with at Militia in 1897 (or earlier) He married in India in  Feb 1897 and was back in Ireland by Dec to enlist in the Colours

He could not have been with a Militia battalion in India (they were for ‘home’ defence), but he could have been serving with any regular infantry battalion there and not necessarily an Irish one. On return to Ireland to his home town then it would’ve been entirely normal for him to enlist with, or transfer to (if still serving out the residue of his regular engagement) his local militia unit, that in 1881 had been linked with regular Irish infantry regiments.  It was in 1908 that the erstwhile militia battalions of the regiments were re-roled as Special Reserve and Extra Reserve, respectively, whilst remaining established for regular and ex-regular ‘permanent staff’ in exactly the same way.

 

NB.  Bear in mind that on joining the militia he was paid a cash bounty and then expected to do just 6-weeks full time training and then discharged back to civilian life with an obligation for recall (embodiment) in the event there was a threat to hearth and home and parliament enacted the call out.  I suspect that he took the bounty to fund his intended passage to India.  This would explain his movements in 1897.

 

 

Edited 14 May , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[corisande]

I have corrected his marriage to that shown in Mormon records, which is more logical. His army record is difficult to read and logically wrong

[FROGSMILE]

11 minutes ago, corisande said:

I have corrected his marriage to that shown in Mormon records, which is more logical. His army record is difficult to read and logically wrong

Question: you say he was married in Karachi BEFORE going to Ireland and joining the Militia?  Was his father Patrick a serving soldier in India?  If so he might have had a wife and family ‘on the strength’ (rationed and living in married quarters) which would explain his son’s presence there.  It might also link in with the mention of Zulu wars service as the father would need long and exemplary service to be granted permission for wife and family to accompany.

Edited 14 May , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Kathleen McGovern]

7 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Question: you say he was married in Karachi BEFORE going to Ireland and joining the Militia?  Was his father Patrick a serving soldier in India?  If so he might have had a wife and family one the strength’ which would explain his son’s presence there.  It might also link in with the mention of Zulu wars service as the father would need long and exemplary service to be granted permission for wife and family to accompany.

He Died in 1951!.. yes I heard the Zulu mentioned that’s the uniform in thd picturd Red with black inserts bottom of sleeve .. Also heard he was ranked ?? He played the bugle another brother has that a find piece Copper and brass .. my Dad uncle ( never married girlfriend became a nun ) 5 grandchildren 4 boys 1 Girl 

ended up living in Abbyfield until his passing in 1951.. quiet a large family for a sm bungalow so I would imagine they would be remembered by some 

[FROGSMILE]

Okay, now that corisande has amended the dates it makes more sense.  Quite a large number of men who enlisted with the militia were successfully encouraged to then join the regulars at the end of their 6-weeks training.  I think that’s what has happened in this case and it explains how he got to India.  He would have gone from the Militia to the Royal Irish home service battalion and then after about a year or 18-months maturing and gaining in experience he would have been sent as part of a reinforcement draft, via the trooping season (troop ship passage), out to the other regular battalion in India.  The policy was to send men out once they reached the age of 21 as they coped better with the climate and were less inclined to sickness.

Edited 14 May , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

6 minutes ago, Kathleen McGovern said:

He Died in 1951!.. yes I heard the Zulu mentioned that’s the uniform in thd picturd Red with black inserts bottom of sleeve .. Also heard he was ranked ?? He played the bugle another brother has that a find piece Copper and brass .. my Dad uncle ( never married girlfriend became a nun ) 5 grandchildren 4 boys 1 Girl 

ended up living in Abbyfield until his passing in 1951.. quiet a large family for a sm bungalow so I would imagine they would be remembered by some 

The Zulu war was in 1879 Kathleen and could only have related to your much earlier forebears.  The scarlet uniform you describe was worn by all British  infantry soldiers, as per the pictures I’ve shown you above, not just by those in the Zulu wars.  I’ve explained the military side in post #16 above if you read it.

Edited 14 May , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Kathleen McGovern]

1 hour ago, corisande said:

OK here is what you need to know about Patrick Kearney b Waterford circa 1879. You could always bill you brother for it

 

1879 Born Waterford. Father was Patrick

 

1897 Nov 8 Aged 18years and 6 months enlisted in P Irish Militia. His address was Grady´s Yard, John St, Waterford. He was a waiter at the Imperial Hotel, Waterford

 

1897 Dec 28.  Attested to R Irish in Ireland. He had previously been in 4th Batn R Irish Militia

His father was Patrick of Portetell, Dublin (difficult to read). And he had brothers Michael & Edward of Gradys Yard, Waterford

 

1907 Feb 12. Married in Karachi to Mary Anne Chase/Cleere. I have correct the date to 1907 from Mormon records and for the child born in 1907

 

1907 Dec 20 Son Patrick Joseph born Rawlpindi

 

1910 Oct 9 Son Edward born Kilkenny

 

1919 Mar 16. discharged on pension for bad teeth, deafness and debility. He was a CQMS. This gives his record

 

 

 

Thank you so much No I will not  be sharing this with him imagine not releasing your heritage to family without a price .. would be fantastic if there were any photographs .. Abd to find out his rank .. 

[FROGSMILE]

It’s clear now that the majority of his service as a regular soldier was with the 1st Battalion Royal Irish Regiment:

 

 1894>Ireland: Curragh 

 1897>Limerick 

 1899>Buttevant 

 1899, Oct.  South Africa 12 Bde

 1904 India: Rhaniket 

 1906 Rawalpindi  

 1910 Agra 

 1912 Nasirabad

 1914 France and Flanders

 

Notes: 

 

1.  It seems clear that at the end of his regular service he returned as an instructor (colour sergeant) to the 4th Battalion at the regimental HQ and Depot in Kilkenny Barracks.

 

2.  It looks as if he probably spent some years in South Africa over and above the 2nd Boer War, and might have had some experience of Natal and Zululand, which had just been annexed in 1898.

Edited 14 May , 2020 by FROGSMILE