Jock Bruce Posted 7 June , 2003 Share Posted 7 June , 2003 ORs serving with the Intelligence Corps in WW1 seem to have been numbered and issued medals as part of 10 RF. Presumably (in the absence of a proper Int Corps regimental structure) they had to 'live' somewhere. Anybody ever seen anything in print about this ? Jock Bruce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike_H Posted 8 June , 2003 Share Posted 8 June , 2003 Jock In the regimental history " The Royal Fusiliers in the Great War" this detail is mentioned and the Intelligence Corps unit is described as "10th ( Royal Fusiliers". or "Intelligence B" abbreviated to "I (" There is no worthwhile description of its activities other than to say that its personnel were engaged in counter espionage work and had been made a part of the Royal Fusiliers for admistrative purposes. As you say they had to "live" somewhere! Presumably a London based unit was most convenient. Mike_H Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike_H Posted 8 June , 2003 Share Posted 8 June , 2003 Jock Apologies for the appearance of text, I don't know how those little ********s inserted themselves. should read "10th (" and I ( Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jock Bruce Posted 8 June , 2003 Author Share Posted 8 June , 2003 Mike, thanks very much for that. "I( B )" may refer to a particular branch of the Intelligence organisation - I know there was an "I(e)" which dealt with codes and ciphers. I know a man who knows. SDitGW lists one man for 10 RF (Intelligence Police). Intelligence Police were the 'spycatchers' rather the 'spys'. If "I( B )" was counter-intelligence it would all fit. There are seperate 14 and 14/15 Star rolls within the RF rolls for what is described as 'Intelligence Corps'. I presume, although I haven't checked, that BW/VM are lumped in with the rest. I feel a diversion from the 5th Seaforths coming on ... ... Jock Bruce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffsyeoman Posted 8 June , 2003 Share Posted 8 June , 2003 This is an 'on the hoof' reply.... facts subject to checking... but I recall an article in the Orders and Medals Research Society (OMRS) journal some years ago... Seems most of these men were serving or recent policemen/detectives and were indeed recruited for counter-intelligence and surveillance duties. '10 RF' was effectively a cover for their work - slightly akin to female SOE operatives being commissioned in the FANYs in WW2. Sorry, my OMRS journals are still buried at the bottom of a box post move/return/re-org! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jock Bruce Posted 8 June , 2003 Author Share Posted 8 June , 2003 Phil, thanks for the steer - I'll see if I dig in out in the library at Kew. This is a tangent to somebody else's research but I can feel myself getting interested. Jock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Seymour Posted 9 June , 2003 Share Posted 9 June , 2003 Jock, There's a book by Clayton A. 'Forearmed. A History of the Intelligence Corps', pub. Brassey's. 1993. A Unit History covering the period from 1899 to 1993. Three chapters deal with the Great War, Chapter 2: The First Intelligence Corps,1914. Chapter 3: The Western Front, 1915-18 & Chapter 4: Other Theatres of Operations and Training, 1914-18. The article in The Orders and Medals Research Society 'The Hush-Hush Brigade' by Robert W. Gould, M.B.E. you will find in the Summer 1993 edition pages 142-144. There's also mention in this article of an autobiography by Percy John Smith who was a detective constable at Scotland Yard in 1914, who volunteered for service abroad with the Intelligence Corps, was given the rank of staff-sergeant in the 10th Bn. Royal Fusiliers. He was employed in counter-espionage and security for the next 4 years and was also attached to the staff of King George V when the monarch visited the Western Front. There's also articles by "Artful" in the Jan. & Sep. 1920 issues of the 'Royal Fusiliers Chronicle'. 'Medal News, April 1990, has an article that mentions in 1916, additional man-power was required to fund the Intellegence Police organisation - its members were to be known as 10th Bn., Royal Fusiliers (Intelligence) ( - "I(" being the category within Militiary Intelligence jargon for counter-espionage and security. It goes on to mention that there was another 10th Bn. Royal Fusiliers which was formed in Aug. 1914, in the City of London and served only in France and Flanders from July 1915. Also included with this article is a useful list of awards with the London Gazette date of the award, given to the members of the Intelligence Police for their services in WW1. Alan Seymour Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kate Wills Posted 9 June , 2003 Share Posted 9 June , 2003 (with my dunce's cap firmly affixed) - One of 'my' men is 10 RF: GEORGE KNIGHT YOUNG Private 293 10th Bn., Royal Fusiliers who died on Thursday, 4th May 1916. Age 21. Additional Information: Son of Charles John and Kezia Young, of 61, Winsham Grove, Clapham Common, London. Cemetery: BERLES-AU-BOIS CHURCHYARD EXTENSION, Pas de Calais, E. 10. Are you saying that this was an ordinary field unit, the majority of whose members were run-of-the-mill troops, to which a few men were assigned for admin. purposes only as a cover for their espionage role? How can you 'spot the spy'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 9 June , 2003 Share Posted 9 June , 2003 It is confusing, isn't it? Your man is a pukka 10th Bn RF soldiers; it was my understanding that the others (which are listed seperately in the printed edition of Soldiers Died were the ones that were the Intelligence operatives disguised as soldiers; from memory there is only a few (less than a dozen?) listed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Seymour Posted 9 June , 2003 Share Posted 9 June , 2003 Out of interest, I just had a look in Soldiers Died, Part 12, Royal Fusiliers, 1989 printed version. Only one man listed in the 10th Bn (Intelligence Police). ARENDT Mathias, b. Walfendande, Luxemburg, e. Holborn (Stacey St., W.C.) 95889, Pte., d., Italy, 26/10/18, formerly 45175, 18th R. Welsh Fus. A check on the Soldiers Died CD-ROM using the Regiment and Battalion search boxes confirmed this. I wonder if (I hope) the original 1921 Soldiers Died was the same? Mathias Arendt, is buried in the Montecchio Precalclino Communal Cemetery Extension, Italy, Plot 10. Row D. Grave 14. this was where from April 1918 to February 1919 those who died from wounds of disease in the 24th and 39th Casulaty Clearing Stations were buried. Alan Seymour Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Steele Posted 9 June , 2003 Share Posted 9 June , 2003 It is confusing, isn't it? Your man is a pukka 10th Bn RF soldiers; it was my understanding that the others (which are listed seperately in the printed edition of Soldiers Died were the ones that were the Intelligence operatives disguised as soldiers; from memory there is only a few (less than a dozen?) listed? This may sound a bit dumb but what is the point of disguising your intelligence agents as your own soldiers ?? They can hardly gain access to anywhere they are likely to learn anything about the enemy !!! Perhaps I have found the fatal flaw in our intelligence They should have been looking like this... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 9 June , 2003 Share Posted 9 June , 2003 You've got it mate... it was a cunning plan ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jock Bruce Posted 9 June , 2003 Author Share Posted 9 June , 2003 Thanks to all who have replied and the leads thrown up. As I said, this is really a footnote to someone's PhD but I can feel myself getting interested. Jock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Seymour Posted 9 June , 2003 Share Posted 9 June , 2003 To add to my earlier postings on this subject I have copied parts of some of the articles I have on the subject taken from "The Orders and Medals Research Society (OMRS)" "Medal News” and Royal Fusiliers' Chronicle" which readers may find of interest. The 'Hush-Hush Brigade' from the “OMRS Journal”, Summer 1993, by Robert W. Gould, M.B.E. "Starting in August 1914, and continuing throughout the War, numbers of Metropolitan and provincial police officers, usually bi-lingual and often from Special Branch, enlisted in the Army for service in the Intelligence Corps. However Metropolitan policemen who joined the Navy or Army in W.W.1 were struck off Police pay and only retained on the Force strength as supernumeraries. Hence if only from a monetary aspect, it was important that their names were published in Police Orders, both when joining the Colours and when they returned to civilian life. But in the case of Intelligence personnel, known to their police colleagues as the 'Hush-Hush Brigade', their names never appeared-unless they were decorated, commissioned or killed in action. And even the latter sometimes disguised. For example, Police Orders dated 7 June 1916 included an item, 'Death. PS CID CO 86705 McLoughlin'; in other words a detective sergeant stationed at Scotland Yard. The type of entry which would normally indicate a death from natural causes whilst serving. In fact McLoughlin was Lord Kitchener's bodyguard and died with his principal on H.M.S. Hampshire. This secrecy extended to an officer's police record of service, in which the sections headed 'Service in H.M. Forces' and 'Medal Entitlement' were both left blank. Furthermore, Intelligence entrants were posted (but only on paper) to the 10th Battalion, Royal Fusiliers, and this was the regiment shown on their medals. Thus there was nothing to denote any connection with Intelligence, either from their medals or their personal files........" “Medal News” April 1990 – “An Intelligence Policeman, MSM” by Dave Buxton. ..........."With the reorganisation of the Intelligence Corps in early 1916, they undertook an additional task - that of counter-espionage on our side of the lines. This was the function of the I( branch of the Intelligence Staff of General Headquarters, who also ran the secret service networks working in enemy held territory. The front-line area for which the British were responsible in France and Flanders had been divided into areas - "A", "B", "C", and "D" from north to south. Each of these areas, which corresponded to the Army boundaries, was sub-divided from front to rear into three zones. In the "Forward" Zone, immediately behind the front line, entry and exit were controlled by a line of "Examining Posts" manned by Intelligence Police. The "Middle Zone" was the area in which most troops were billeted, and behind that lay the "Rear Zone", through which troops and convoys moved. Each area had a controlling officer, with several subalterns and about 50 Intelligence Police under command, placed in 20 stations, each station manned by a pair of policemen, in some cases covering a 50 square mile area. The Controlling Officer supplied questionnaires, and some Intelligence policemen operated independently of the static stations, checking travel documents collecting information from local residents as well as refugees from forward areas, who passed through the lines........." “Royal Fusiliers’ Chronicle” Jan., 1920 - “The 10th ( (Service) Battalion Royal Fusiliers or Intelligence Corps“ by “Artful” ………..Many spies and suspects spies were tracked down, and (what was of just as much importance in those days) Germany’s agents were hindered to such an extent that their activities became no longer a danger. This was really the great achievement of the Counter-Espionage branch of the Intelligence Corps in France. Later the net spread to Italy, Salonica, Eastern Theatres and afterwards to Russia. The question of keeping pay accounts and records became so difficult that, to simplify matters, it was decided to transfer all men employed on Intelligence duties to one unit, and thus the 10th ( Battalion Royal Fusiliers came into existence……… Alan Seymour Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffsyeoman Posted 9 June , 2003 Share Posted 9 June , 2003 To be ever so slightly serious... you give your operatives innocent 'top cover' to make them camouflaged, deniable whatever. Dress them aside from their real job - unless you want the real job to stand out. Having badges/insignia declaiming 'hello, I'm a covert operator' is really rather self-defeating. They must blend. Hope I don't sound pompous.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Steele Posted 10 June , 2003 Share Posted 10 June , 2003 You've got it mate... it was a cunning plan ... I just love the idea of Charteris being a Baldrick to Haigs Blackadder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jock Bruce Posted 10 June , 2003 Author Share Posted 10 June , 2003 Alan and others, thanks again. I've been pondering (strokes chin in best Vic Reeves manner) on 'why the 10th RF ?' I've been told one of the shakers and movers in intelligence was a pre-war adjutant of an RF battalion, so it may be that it is an 'old boy' thing. Does the fact they were a London mob have something to do with it ? Does their origins as 'Stockbrokers' suggest lots of links to the 'establishment' and hence another 'old boy' route ? What does the panel think ? Jock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tintin Posted 13 June , 2003 Share Posted 13 June , 2003 For what it's worth I always thought 10th ( was chosen because 2/10th would have looked like a TA rather than New Army unit. I don't think there was any connection with the 10th (Stock) Bn RF which was the original "Pals" Battalion. 10 ( were the Army equivalent of Special Branch, the Field Security Police were the WW2 equivalent. The book "Armour Against Fate" gives the full picture of Military Intelligence in the war, all the undercover people lay concealed beneath the various branches of MI at GHQ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jock Bruce Posted 21 June , 2003 Author Share Posted 21 June , 2003 I've begun to scratch the surface of this. Having had a look at the BWM/VM rolls for 10 RF (Int Corps) men it looks like a fair number of TF men who ultimately had RF numbers in the G or GS/99xxx range were, when the TF renumbered in early 17, allocated 6 digit London Regt numbers before subsequently being allocated RF numbers e.g. 3232 1/4 OBLI then 229010 (Londons) then GS/99206 in RF 3141 1/4 Berks then 229011 (Londons) then GS/99207 in RF This suggests to me that the London Regt, specifically 1st Londons, may have functioned as a 'home' for TF men employed on intelligence duties in the same way as 10 RF did for non-TF men - then at some point they were all transfered to 10 RF. According to the list I've seen 1st Londons were allocated numbers from 200001 to 230000. The last 5000 (or some such number) in each block were reserved for Base Records overseas to allow for renumbering 'in theatre'. The Int Corps men seem to have the very top of the block. Any comments from forum land (including 'get a life') welcome. Jock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ian Bowbrick Posted 21 June , 2003 Share Posted 21 June , 2003 JB, It was those 2 mochas that did it wasn't it! Seriously though interesting to hear that someone may have cracked a numbering system. Anymore on the Policeman link? I wonder if a link can be made of foreign nationals in the Labour Corps moving to the 10th RF if you know what I mean. Perhaps an 1130 discussion topic! Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 21 June , 2003 Share Posted 21 June , 2003 It is confusing, isn't it? Your man is a pukka 10th Bn RF soldiers; it was my understanding that the others (which are listed seperately in the printed edition of Soldiers Died were the ones that were the Intelligence operatives disguised as soldiers; from memory there is only a few (less than a dozen?) listed? This may sound a bit dumb but what is the point of disguising your intelligence agents as your own soldiers ?? This didn't end with the Great War. Many CIA operatives ("Spooks") went into the field in Vietnam as ordinary "Grunts". Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jock Bruce Posted 22 June , 2003 Author Share Posted 22 June , 2003 Ian, there a couple of strands which end in 10 RF - the first, with RF numbers about 14xxx, are the CID officers enlisted at New Scotland Yard from 5 Aug 14, and off to France very quickly. Their enlistment actually predates the formation of 10 RF, which leads me to think there may have been a 'deal' with the RF from the start - presumably their enlistment had formed part of mobilisation planning. The enlistment forms I've seen for these guys are signed by 'B H Thomson' as Magistrate or Attesting Officer - this is presumably Basil Thompson who I think was head of Special Branch. There is then a much larger number of guys who reach 10 RF by diverse routes - regulars, wartime enlistments and TF. Non-English names are fairly common in this lot, presumably language ability was an important factor. These are probably things like ORs employed on the int staffs at formations, field security, clerical support to int units and I spotted at least one who was working in a RE intercept unit (the RE SIgnal Service ran Sigint on the Western Front). Lots to do, lots to think about. I'm deliberately not reading any books until I've done more in the PRO - I'm formulating my own view before letting facts get in the way ... .... ... And you're right - it is the second Mocha that gets the brain working! Jock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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