Winterberg Tunnel - Chemin des Dames- french attack 4 May 1917

[Ralph J. Whitehead]

The existing Stammrolle books do identify the men listed as missing either using 4th or 5th May as the date. The 10th Company simply shows them as missing, the 11th Company mentions they were missing in the Winterberg Stollen. While time consuming and expensive, the recovery would hopefully prevent looting. I expect that items will start appearing on Ebay soon if not already.

[Martin Feledziak]

9 hours ago, Ralph J. Whitehead said:

The existing Stammrolle books 

 

Ralph - Just checking was it the Prussian version of Stammrolle which was destroyed by fire ?

[AOK4]

1 minute ago, Martin Feledziak said:

 

Ralph - Just checking was it the Prussian version of Stammrolle which was destroyed by fire ?

 

Yes, but the Stammrollen and Ranglisten of Baden and Württemberg were already elsewhere and are saved as well.

[Martin Feledziak]

Thanks Jan.

I knew that the Prussian records were destroyed in the Potsdam fire but I was not sure which specific documents. So this helps.

 

[egbert]

As you all know I am a German military veteran with 38 years of service. I think that qualifies for a German-sight statement.

I am following this genre particularly on a French forum where the topic is discussed in much more details.

On neither forum I ever made a statement, but here is my 5 pence to the whole mess.

It is alright that the exact entrance to the tunnel has been researched and finally discovered by the Malinowski brothers. What I would like to see is a thorough sealing of the entrance with concrete. It is paramount to let the peace of dead undisturbed. They shall stay forever where they suffered together. Above the sealed entrance I would expect a sober memorial created by stonemasons with a corresponding plaque. That`s all. Do not disturb my comrades' eternal rest! No relocation of the dead after >100 years +

[andrew pugh]

Hi egbert

I understand that there is a strong possibility that some of the soldiers may have written last desperate letters or notes to parents, wives, brothers. If that is the case at lest recover those letters so they can possibly be given to living family members to whom they were destined. Personally I think you owe them that request before sealing it up as you suggest. It would be a shame for them not ever knowing if their letters ever reached their loved ones.  

Kind Regards

Andy 

[Martin Feledziak]

I am with Egbert.

 

properly secure and fit a lasting memorial. You can be assured that any person trapped inside would send heartfelt messages to their families. So nothing to be gained from going in to recover notes. Also consider the dangers to be faced by anyone brave enough to venture into such an unstable place. 
 

Properly secure !!

 

 

[keithmroberts]

from a home in England, I am in total agreement with Egbert. I see no sense or decency in disturbing these men now. Their grave should indeed be made secure, and protected for ever against grave robbers, and a memorial would be a fitting way to amrk where they lie.

 

Keith

[Guest]

Our colleague Egbert expresses a decent and honourable wish.  A small downside is that the grave robbers are neither decent nor honourable. Given the size of the tunnel, then it may be the more practical long-term solution against the continuing possibility of further intrusion to remove the remains to a VKD cemetery.  Or collapsing the entire length of the tunnel.

   A second concern is whether any effort should be made to identify the men, albeit that there are some contemporary listings, as above, of the missing. This would seem to go right to the very soul of what VKD (and CWGC,etc) actually do.  Try to recover?  Try to identify? Try to remember?  Some very, very deep questions here about what "remembrance" actually means in practice.

[charlie2]

I‘m afraid any wishes of the general public as to the best solution will not be taken into consideration. The soldiers come from the wrong country for any widespread public support for any solution. The outcome will be dictated by finance and what is practical. 
 

[knittinganddeath]

Given the Volksbund's attitude, I am surprised that egbert's suggestion of sealing the site with concrete has not already been carried out. I think it is an elegant and simple solution.

 

If anyone wants to know what it was like in the tunnel after the collapse, Karl Fisser -- one of the few survivors -- left an account in the regimental history. Parts of it are quoted in the BBC article, and a longer version in English can be found here starting on page 328.

[ph0ebus]

My great uncle Simon Stern was a Gefreiter in Reserve Feldartillerie Regiment Nr. 5 in 1917 (he is 2nd from right in this photo).  My understanding is that he served with his unit at Winterberg, possibly around the time of the tunnel collapse but likely after the incident on 4 May, though I cannot be sure of that.  I don’t have any of his personnel records and likely never will.
 

This photo was taken on Winterberg.  I only have broader information about that, nothing specific.  I wonder how well known this incident was to the troops that served there afterwards?

 

As an aside, what is the structure in the background of the photo?  Does anyone know?

 

Daniel

 

 

 

[Ralph J. Whitehead]

On 18/03/2021 at 05:27, Martin Feledziak said:

 

Ralph - Just checking was it the Prussian version of Stammrolle which was destroyed by fire ?

Unfortunately yes, they were destroyed in an air raid at the end of the war.

[egbert]

Grande Guerre dans l’Aisne : des opérations de sondage au tunnel de Winterberg dès ce mardi (lunion.fr)

 

The latest news and development

[charlie2]

For those of us who don’t understand French

 

Following the working meeting of February 15 in the prefecture of the Aisne, chaired by the prefect, with all the actors concerned, the Volksbund Deutsche Kriegsgräberfürsorge (VDK), the German war graves maintenance service, will begin survey operations on the site known as the "Winterberg Tunnel" in the Aisne, starting this Tuesday, April 27, and ending on April 29. This dossier has caused controversy. These new technical explorations, which will last three days, are being organized in liaison with the French authorities and coordinated by the Aisne prefecture in accordance with the rules in force. The 3rd Engineer Regiment of Charleville-Mézières will provide support in coordination with the mine clearance service, the Groupe de reconnaissance et d'intervention en milieu périlleux and the Bundeswehr. These operations are the result of a broad Franco-German consultation in compliance with the rules of security and those aiming at maximum respect for the memory of these soldiers and their descendants. They should make it possible to better identify the characteristics of the site before possible archaeological excavations to be carried out in consultation with the representatives of the territory. This new step constitutes a strong point in the cooperation that has been underway for many months between the French and German authorities. For the prefecture, "it confirms the solid ties forged between the two countries for the construction of a shared memory.

[egbert]

Images and video from the 3 day probe :

 

https://www.volksbund.de/nachrichten/spektakulaerer-fund-am-winterberg-tunnel#gallery-1

 

https://www.volksbund.de/nachrichten/spektakulaerer-fund-am-winterberg-tunnel

 

Bergung von Tunnel-Toten - ZDFmediathek

 

[Martin Feledziak]

A quick google translate of one of the above articles from Egberts post above.

 

 

 

What at first glance looks like a colorful gathering of uniformed men in the forest below the Plateau de Californie is actually a highly concentrated and precisely planned exploration: Experts from the Volksbund and its partner organization ONAC, the French archaeological authority DRAC and professional trackers from the Georadar company are currently involved to find out the truth about the Winterberg Tunnel near the French town of Craonne (northwest of Reims). The trackers are supported by soldiers of the French army and the German armed forces, the local gendarmerie, fire brigade, paramedics, the ordnance disposal service and many volunteers.

 

"After unauthorized excavations have already taken place here, we and our French partners are forced to get a very precise picture of the situation," says Arne Schrader. The head of the burial service department of the Volksbund Deutsche Kriegsgräberfürsorge coordinates the technical work on the Chemin des Dames, where German and French troops fought a loss-making trench war in the First World War.

 

After the team had already encountered the tracks of a field railway during excavations on Wednesday morning, which seem to lead deep into the Winterberg, Schrader announced another spectacular find in the afternoon: "A uniform coat of the 111th Reserve Infantry Regiment!" that the documents about the dead of the Baden regiment are correct. The dig can go on.

 

 

There is also an alarm bell in the ground

The search started in the morning with a joint commemoration of the up to 250 dead German soldiers who are suspected to be in the tunnel, but also of the many French who were killed in this mountainous forest on Chemin des Dames. Among the photos that reminded of the dead in front of the presumed tunnel entrance were not only pictures of Germans, but also those of Laurent Michalot, who died at the age of 33 on April 19, 1917 in fighting nearby.

 

As early as midday, the technical project manager presented exciting finds behind the mighty piles of sand that excavators had piled up on the steep slope: remains of a German soldier's helmet, a bayonet, grenades, angles to stabilize wooden cladding, an alarm bell, as was common at tunnel entrances. However, the search had to be interrupted again and again because of several finds of ammunition remains.

 

[Patrick]

Thursday Yesterday's Links

Excavations are stopped by very unstable ammunition found.

The drill has broken twice on the hard lime layer.

 

https://www.volksbund.de/nachrichten/winterberg-tunnel#gallery-1

 

https://www.volksbund.de/nachrichten/winterberg-tunnel

 

 

 

 Conclusions translated  partly  from the german text

"The dead rest here protected"

Together with Eric Maury from ONAC, with representatives of the DRAC cultural authority and the ONF forestry authority, they all agreed, according to Schrader, that the work could not be continued. Finally, there were no further permits for excavations. "The dead rest here protected as far as humanly possible," said the project manager in view of the massive earthfalls in front of the possible tunnel entrance.

 

Further ...

 

Even if grave robbers approached with massive tools such as those of the  excavators, they would have little opportunity to open the tunnel - without endangering life and limb. Jérome Malet from the prefecture added that the Craonne forest remains a “red zone” that is controlled. It is important that the dead are remembered here in the future. Schrader concludes: "We will clarify with our French partners how we can honorably remember the dead on site."

 

 

@+

Patrick 

Edited 30 April , 2021 by Patrick

[Ralph J. Whitehead]

Picric acid was discovered in the unexploded shells. This filling will form crystals that become unstable where just hitting a shell with the crystals could set it off. The initial illegal digs used heavy equipment and if the bucket struck a shell there is a very good chance it could go off. Even containers of picric acid in labs requires bomb disposal if it had been sitting too long and crystals formed in the threads of the cap. Simply unscrewing the cap could set it off. The munitions ship that exploded in Nova Scotia during the war was carrying a large amount of picric acid and could be the reason the ship exploded.

[Sly]

Some might disagree with me but in a way i see this as a good end for the Winterberg tunnel. It's a bit like if mother nature, who has suffered so much,  reminds us what we have done and send us a message not to disturb all the fallen eaten by the earth. 

Sly

[AOK4]

 

My opinion: they didn't really want to get to the tunnel and thus this was the result. I dare to say that with a short time "collectors" will enter the tunnel and loot the stuff there.

 

It's a disgrace in my opinion.

[KernelPanic]

Germany won’t excavate WWI tunnel containing hundreds of soldiers’ bodies

So says CNN:

'The remains of more than 200 German soldiers who were buried alive in a tunnel in northeastern France during the World War I will not be recovered. The German government has instead decided to declare the burial site a war memorial and put it under state protection. Germany’s war grave commission, the Volksbund, and the French government announced the decision at the Caverne du Dragon museum in northeastern France on Friday afternoon.'

[Martin Feledziak]

I think that this is the correct decision. 

[charlie2]

On the Volksbund site

https://www.volksbund.de/nachrichten/winterbergtunnel-wird-offizielle-deutsche-kriegsgraeberstaette

[egbert]

Amen