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Remembered Today:

Winterberg Tunnel - Chemin des Dames- french attack 4 May 1917


David_Blanchard

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I am trying to find out more about the dramatic events of 4 May 1917 on the heights of the Chemin des Dames- when a french attack on the RIR 110 caused the Winterberg tunnel to collapse entombing 250 men. Most perished, and according to a report in a french newspaper L’Union from 2018,  they are still there.


 

For the events of 4 May 1917 I have read Ralph Whitehead’s vol. 3 of The Other Side of the Wire- and also Jack Sheldon’s book concerned with the German army in 1917.

 

 However, I have yet to come across any photographs of the Winterberg tunnel or trench maps with it on.

Any help appreciated 

Edited by David_Blanchard
Clumsy prose
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Hi Egbert,

 

thanks for the reference to a fascinating thread about Mount Cornillet, Champagne.  But sadly there is nothing here, I can find, on the Winterberg tunnel on the Chemin des Dames.

 

thanks

 

David 

 

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  • 3 months later...

Interesting to see that the presidant of the local Community of Communes thought the Germans had recovered the bodies !

 

Courrier Picard, 2018:

 La révélation de la présence de 250 corps de soldats allemands sur le Chemin des Dames suscite de nombreuses réactions. C’est la sidération qui s’exprime d’une façon générale. L’histoire a tellement été enfouie que tout le monde exprime son ignorance, comme Stéphane Bedhomme, fondateur du musée de Vassogne consacré à la reconstruction du Chemin des Dames.

“C’est important de les identifier pour les familles”

« J’ignorais tout de ce drame. Pour moi, il est important d’enterrer les corps, de les identifier pour les familles des descendants. Elles doivent donc être interrogées sur leurs souhaits. »

Stéphane Bedhomme souhaite également que le tunnel dans lequel les soldats ont trouvé la mort le 4 mai 1917 devienne un lieu de mémoire « pour rappeler leur destin et présenter le contexte historique. »

Haïm Kern, âgé de 88 ans, a réalisé la sculpture Ils n’ont pas choisi de sépulture pour la commémoration du 80e anniversaire de l’Armistice en 1998. Elle évoque justement le tragique destin des combattants sacrifiés dont les corps gisent encore dans la terre.

Né en Allemagne, de nationalité française, l’artiste considère que la révélation de la présence de 250 corps de soldats allemands dans un tunnel près de Craonne, « est un fait majeur dans cette année du centenaire ».

Cette découverte provoque sa stupéfaction : « C’est incroyable. Je tombe des nues. » Selon Haïm Kern, la décision d’inhumer les corps dépend des familles de ces combattants allemands. « Je m’étonne que rien n’ait été fait. Cela m’interpelle », dit l’artiste qui expose actuellement 70 œuvres au musée Alexandre-Dumas et à la médiathèque de Villers-Cotterêts.

“Pourquoi les laisser ainsi dans le néant ?”

Laurent Tourrier est un artiste peintre établi sur le Chemin des Dames à Neuville-sur-Ailette. Il expose à la Maison des arts de Laon et toute son œuvre est nourrie de la Première Guerre mondiale. Il se montre abasourdi lui aussi par l’importance du nombre de soldats ensevelis depuis un siècle : « Je ne connaissais pas cette histoire. Je suis complètement surpris. »

Selon lui, il faut avertir les descendants des familles des soldats allemands de la situation. Laurent Tourrier exprime clairement sa conviction : « Ils méritent une sépulture », et pose cette question : « Pourquoi les laisser ainsi dans le néant ? »

Le président de la communauté de communes du Chemin des Dames, Jean-Paul Coffinet, a une tout autre réaction, pleine de doutes sur cette énigme : «  J’en ai entendu parler, tout et n’importe quoi sur le sujet, mais je n’ai aucune certitude. Je pense pour ma part que les corps ont été récupérés par l’État allemand. » Cette thèse recueille très peu d’adhésion chez les historiens.

Le conseil départemental attend désormais d’en savoir plus. François Rampelberg, vice-président, explique, comme d’autres interlocuteurs, tout ignorer de cette histoire. Il compte l’évoquer avec le président Nicolas Fricoteaux en prenant le temps d’en saisir tous les enjeux.

Enlisés dans l’oubli, les soldats jaillissent enfin dans la lumière.

Thierry de Lestang-Parade et

Marie-Christine Lardenois

image.png.92470f35f15cc7ae18c30761a0dee8ba.png

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  • 3 months later...

From the French Frorum 

 

The Malinovsky  brothers,  do find the tunnel,  see images from French National   TF1news . 

 

https://www.tf1.fr/tf1/jt-we/videos/le-mystere-du-tunnel-de-winterberg-enfin-elucide-87044108.html

 

https://actu.orange.fr/societe/videos/le-mystere-du-tunnel-de-winterberg-enfin-elucide-CNT000001vg9mU.html

Now the work starts ..

 

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  • 1 month later...

Ten French historians and archaeologists wrote to Le Monde today urging that a proper scientific study of the tunnel and its occupants be carried out before any burial.

They stress that archaeology has moved on to dealing with the 20th century. While the Volksbund Deutsche Kriegsgräberfürsorge (VDK) has taken no decision yet as to how to deal with the problem, "simply reburying the bodies, which will not perhaps all be identifiable or with immediate family, in the nearest German military cemetery, would mean burying with them the historic and scientific knowledge that they hold."

https://www.lemonde.fr/sciences/article/2021/01/25/les-corps-des-soldats-de-la-grande-guerre-sont-des-objets-archeologiques-il-faut-les-traiter-comme-tels_6067474_1650684.html

Cheers Martin B

 

 

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  • 1 month later...

Thanks. Interesting compilation of different sources  but nothing new since January.

As Martin said, the main point is now the "symetrical" lack of decision of VDK (DE) on the bodies disposal  and ministry of culture (FR) for a scientific study.

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      I think that a growing amount of attention will be centered on the differing ways that each country seeks to deal with war dead if recovered in large numbers at one go. The VDK stance is in general accord with it's quiet way of doing things given the long-term touchiness about German actions in both world wars. The contrast with the attitude of the Australians at Fromelles is striking.  Not even in death is everyone equal but still subject of national officialdoms even after a century. It does seem unlikely that there will be much demand for an extensive "track and trace" with DNA, family contacts, etc but it may become the source of  some muted discord.

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Just keeping a tag on this thread to see what develops.

 

A most confusing article by   Hugh Schofield from the BBC.

 

How amazing that in 1917 just 3 survivors got out and that is all.

 

It also claims that now 9 soldiers have been identified. Have remains been recovered and identified or

perhaps it would be better to say say that potentially the relatives of 9 missing soldiers have been identified.

Edited by Martin Feledziak
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It was discussed in the closing minutes of the Today programme, this morning. Sounded like a cri de coeur to me: please guard the site someone, anyone.

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Good Evening.

Do you think they will fetch them out and give them a proper burial. A comment made in the BBC article concerning the find by a spokes woman for the VDK Diane Tempel-Barnett told German radio "to be honest we are not very excited about the discovery in fact we find it all most unfortunate. What a terrible statement to make considering who she represents. Thank god we have the C. W.G. C. 

Regards

Andy    

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A very difficult question to answer. My totally honest reply would be to leave them to rest in peace. But I absolutely would understand the decision to recover and honour with a new site. 

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I think the French government will put pressure on the Germans and then they might take action. But in all honesty, the Volksbund is not interested and basically just thinks about the money this whole thing may cost. And politically, no one cares either. Officially, current Germany has nothing to do with any army before the Bundeswehr was founded. This creates a huge problem when it comes to matters like this. There is little chance, the German public will do something either, they have been told that all soldiers from past German armies were war criminals.

I remember that the whole Hill 80 discovery created very little enthousiasm from the Volksbund either. It was only after the representative in Belgium (a Belgian) strongly urged for official recognition, that the Volksbund acted.

 

Jan

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10 hours ago, andrew pugh said:

What a terrible statement to make considering who she represents

I couldn‘t agree more.

 

Something needs to be done and quickly, the vultures are circling and I doubt they will be patient. If one person can get a JCB there it won‘t belong before someone else thinks of it with inevitable consequences.

 

Any search for relatives is pure speculation as no-one knows for sure who is in the tunnel.

 

Charlie

Edited by charlie2
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I have seen posts suggesting that the cowboy exploration and opening relates as much to political ambitions of a particular family, and that the exact location of the tunnel and its casualties has been well known for years. The casualties are buried and have been undisturbed for over a century. I understand that German records were pretty comprehensive, (although most Prussian army records were destroyed by bombing in WW2), so the main effect of recovery would be to move the bodies from one form of grave to another.I'm not sure that such a process would add greatly to research, given that several other tunnels have been excavated, explored, and studied over the years.

 

The main effect of the publicity so far seems to have been to provide modern day "tomb robbers" with a chance to extract artefactswith no respect for the men who died. There was no mystery about the men in this tunnel, but I can accept that now it may be neccessary to open it and remove the bodies to protect them from the disrespectful who just want to find "souvenirs" to sell.

Edited by keithmroberts
typo corrected
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Only cold numbers I know, the post war German lists of the missing record 175 members of RIR 111 still missing from the 4th & 5th May. The figure of 175 is for the whole of the Regiment, how many of these are in the tunnel is unknown.

 

Charlie

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1 hour ago, keithmroberts said:

I can accept that now it may be necessary to open it and remove the bodies to protect them from the disrespectful who just want to find "souvenis" to sell.

 

     I think you have hit the nail on the head.  Leaving the human remains where they are  simply-and inevitably (given past experience)- opens the way for the ghouls and vultures to plunder.  The purpose of a  cemetery is to give a focus of remembrance and a FINAL resting place. Each one of the German soldiers who died there is as much entitled to equality of treatment and a war grave as any other. 

   What, I wonder, would be the reaction if a grave in a Volksbund cemetery was plundered?  My guess it would be all over the media as an "outrage".  Is the Volksbund essentially to be allowed to sanction the plundering of some remains as against others in its care simply because, effectively, it can't be bothered?  Equality for those in its care and a  common standard of equality of remembrance and commemoration are matters of which  the Volksbund should be very forcibly reminded. 

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On 8/18/2020 at 10:42 AM, AOK4 said:

That is more than an article Jan. That is more like a book. I shall take my time reading through. I have only just skimmed through. Very impressive.

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Hi

These young men who are buried in this tunnel are reported as probably being in good condition, so therefore there is a great opportunity to identify them. They should be recovered. I was talking to my wife about the discovery of these men and how really in all honesty the German authorities are not all that interested, She told me that when she invited one of her friends who happens to be German around for a coffee and a chat in the garden before the first lockdown. It came up in conversation about what I do in my spare time which is researching unknown soldiers of the great war and try to identify them. My wife was absolutely shocked when her friend said she had know real knowledge about ww1., she said its not taught in school in Germany.. I think personally Europe is starting to forget.

Why doesn't someone contact the Durand Group they are the experts in tunnel recovery.

Regards

Andy  

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15 hours ago, AOK4 said:

I think the French government will put pressure on the Germans and then they might take action. But in all honesty, the Volksbund is not interested and basically just thinks about the money this whole thing may cost. And politically, no one cares either. Officially, current Germany has nothing to do with any army before the Bundeswehr was founded. This creates a huge problem when it comes to matters like this. There is little chance, the German public will do something either, they have been told that all soldiers from past German armies were war criminals.

I remember that the whole Hill 80 discovery created very little enthousiasm from the Volksbund either. It was only after the representative in Belgium (a Belgian) strongly urged for official recognition, that the Volksbund acted.

 

Jan

Jan, 

 

You may very well be correct in regards to the Volksbund and political interest, but I am not sure I agree with you in relation to interest from families and descendants of the Soldiers themselves. It seems to me there could be significant interest. 

 

Great War Remembrance in Germany is very visible and current. (Certainly relative to my country - Ireland). Every city, town, village, tiny hamlet, church, graveyards in Bavaria (at least) has a war memorial, naming the individual soldiers of the locality. These are very well cared for, sometime painstakingly so. Perhaps Bavaria is different from other parts of Germany but walking German graveyards of the Somme and elsewhere, you see flowers and photographs on the graves. 

 

It does not appear to me, that the people caring for these graves and memorials view their ancestors as simple war criminals. 


Jervis

 

 

 

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