Canadian War Service and cap badges

[T Bone]

I have a couple of War Service badges as well as a General Service pin.

Neither of my grandfathers served in the First War. My paternal grandfather enlisted but was medically discharged before departing for overseas (at least that was the story).

My maternal granddad was a master machinist /mould maker and deemed as exempt (at least that was the story).

Pictured in the first file are 3 badges, the top two are dated but the third one at the bottom is not, but it dose have a serial number stamped on the back along with a warning "penalty for misuse 500 dollars or six months imprisonment". 

Can anyone share more information on these items?

I also have a cap badge from the 86th Machine Gun Battalion which I assume would have been my dad's father's.

Not sure about the MN pin, Merchant Navy perhaps? 

 

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

The three uppermost badges were for skilled factory workers like machinists.  The badges were worn on civilian clothes and demonstrated that a man was on key war service and not shirking to avoid military service.  The badges were serial numbered to prevent fraud.  Canada’s war production of modern war materials was second only to Britain’s within the Empire itself.

 

MN is a lapel badge for men of the Merchant Navy for the same purpose.

 

The Canadian machine gun battalion badge is actually a ‘sweetheart brooch’ for a man to give to his girlfriend, or mother, so that they could take pride in his service but also have a comforting keepsake to remember him by while he was away on duty.

Edited 14 April , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[T Bone]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

The three uppermost badges were for skilled factory workers like machinists.  The badges were worn on civilian clothes and demonstrated that a man was on key war service and not shirking to avoid military service.  The badges were serial numbered to prevent fraud.  Canada’s war production of modern war materials was second only to Britain’s within the Empire itself.

 

MN is a lapel badge for men of the Merchant Navy for the same purpose.

 

The Canadian machine gun battalion badge is actually a ‘sweetheart brooch’ for a man to give to his girlfriend, or mother, so that they could take pride in his service but also have a comforting keepsake to remember him by while he was away on duty.

Thank you FROGSMILE, that all makes sense and fits into the family's narrative. 

The Merchant Marine pin on the other hand is the outlier and a mystery. 

I know that my grandfather who was rejected from service worked for the Ontario Northland Railway in that time period. I wonder if rail workers would have been exempt and the one with the serial number was his? 

[Foresterab]

Random thought here from Canada is that your grandfather may have worked on a railway owned ship in the Great Lakes.  Many rail lines especially on the Lake Superior coast took mine and mill products to dockets where they would be transferred to the barges shipping in turn to the USA or Canadian factories.   
 

I don’t know much about that particular railway but that was the situation when out that way with work a couple years back and trying to protect historic sites from a forest fire.  
 

Just a random idea that might be of assistance.  
 

foresterab 

[FROGSMILE]

9 hours ago, T Bone said:

Thank you FROGSMILE, that all makes sense and fits into the family's narrative. 

The Merchant Marine pin on the other hand is the outlier and a mystery. 

I know that my grandfather who was rejected from service worked for the Ontario Northland Railway in that time period. I wonder if rail workers would have been exempt and the one with the serial number was his? 

The smallest badge relates to WW2 and so should be viewed separately to those for 1914 and 1915.  See the details at this link:  https://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/remembrance/medals-decorations/details/32

 

Also here: https://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/remembrance/medals-decorations/medal-type/3

 

Your 1914 On War Service badge was awarded by the Admiralty for service in rapid assembly and repair of ships and other vessels, so there might be a Lakes connection there too.  There is more general information regarding such “On War Service” lapel pin badges, provided by Britain’s Imperial War Museum (set up after WW1) here: https://www.iwm.org.uk/history/on-war-service-badge

 

Regarding the Merchant Navy pin, activity on Canada’s Great Lakes connected with the linking railways seems quite feasible given the importance of trade across those waters at the time.

Edited 14 April , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[T Bone]

Wow great info, thank you!

 

The General Service pin would have been my dad's; he served Aug 40 to Aug 45 RCVNR.

 

The 1914 On War Service badge was my machinist granddad's. I don't know what the connection would have been with the Admiralty but I do know he made several trips to England during the war years and I do remember him telling me it was do do with war work.

 

[T Bone]

13 hours ago, Foresterab said:

Random thought here from Canada is that your grandfather may have worked on a railway owned ship in the Great Lakes.  Many rail lines especially on the Lake Superior coast took mine and mill products to dockets where they would be transferred to the barges shipping in turn to the USA or Canadian factories.   
 

I don’t know much about that particular railway but that was the situation when out that way with work a couple years back and trying to protect historic sites from a forest fire.  
 

Just a random idea that might be of assistance.  
 

foresterab 

You could be right. The Ontario Northland serviced North Bay, Temiskaming, Coblat, Cochrane and Sudbury with a branch down to Toronto.

Certainly important war materials such as silver, nickel and timber were transported on that line.

[FROGSMILE]

13 minutes ago, T Bone said:

Wow great info, thank you!

 

The General Service pin would have been my dad's; he served Aug 40 to Aug 45 RCVNR.

 

The 1914 On War Service badge was my machinist granddad's. I don't know what the connection would have been with the Admiralty but I do know he made several trips to England during the war years and I do remember him telling me it was do do with war work.

 

Canada was always important to Britain in both World Wars, especially in terms of the Royal Navy and its naval base there to cover North Atlantic trade.  The Royal Canadian Navy contributed significantly and there was coordination of convoy escorts, for example, through the Admiralty.

Edited 14 April , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[T Bone]

2 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Canada was always important to Britain in both World Wars, especially in terms of the Royal Navy and its naval base there to cover North Atlantic trade.  The Royal Canadian Navy contributed significantly and there was coordination of convoy escorts, for example, through the Admiralty.

Indeed. I was even named after the first ship my dad served on, HMCS Prince David (F89), the David part, not the Prince 

[Foresterab]

I looked into this some more.  Ontario Northland operated primarily in NE Ontario pulling raw resources south.  They did operate a number of ships and barges but a quick check seems to show most were operated in the 1920-1960 period especially around Lake Nippissing and Tenogami.  They did originate around Parry Sound though

 

Your post from this morning though references him taking some trips to England during the war and I now wonder if that’s a memento from one of those trips?  
 

Either way it was interesting to look up and appreciated seeing the pins re: war effort.  Had not seen such growing up from local farmers or great grandfather (printer) who did not join up 

[T Bone]

Same old story, I wished I'd asked more questions when I was young.

 

And even though I have lots of photos and momentous of my dad's time in the navy, there are still holes in the narrative.

My mom, who passed away this passed November (100 years 4 months) could not fill in the blanks as she gradually lost her long term memory in her later years.

[Matlock1418]

On 14/04/2020 at 00:15, T Bone said:

Not sure about the MN pin, Merchant Navy perhaps? 

 

On 14/04/2020 at 02:12, T Bone said:

The Merchant Marine pin on the other hand is the outlier and a mystery. 

Merchant Navy - your MN badge certainly looks like one I have that I believe was from WW2 period service

I don't know the timespan span of such badges - but would be interested to know.

:-) M

[FROGSMILE]

46 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

 

Merchant Navy - your MN badge certainly looks like one I have that I believe was from WW2 period service

 

I don't know the timespan span of such badges - but would be interested to know.

:-) M

??  You must be bored!  This was answered back on 14 April.

 

King George V awarded the title Merchant Navy to Britain’s merchant fleet in recognition of their service to the nation following WW1.  The lapel pin is their official badge and the same as that which appears on grave markers.

 

 

Edited 21 November , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Matlock1418]

1 minute ago, FROGSMILE said:

??  You must be bored!  This was answered back on 14 April.

Not bored but interested.

I know the OP and you mentioned the MN [including the importance in both world wars}

Perhaps I have missed it - for clarification, which post/where covers the timespan of the MN badge which was the final part of my recent post?

I'm not a matelot specialist but think at the time of WW1 Mercantile Marine was more common than Merchant Navy.

Certainly Mercantile Marine was used on their campaign medal.

Just interested.

:-/ M

[FROGSMILE]

Yes, after WW1, I’m afraid I was still editing my post.

 

I’m not sure how the merchant activity on Canada’s Great Lakes compared between WW1 and WW2 but imagine it was similar, or probably increased.  Forum member @RNCVR can perhaps advise.

Edited 21 November , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Matlock1418]

6 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes, after WW1, I’m afraid I was still editing my post.

Thank you.

As I thought.

I knew about the MN on CWGC headstones

Don't know to what extent MN was used for WW1 MM veterans - certainly more for serving MN in WW2

Hence the enquiry about dates.

We both/all may yet find more.

:-) M

 

Edited 21 November , 2020 by Matlock1418
typo

[FROGSMILE]

11 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

Thank you.

As I thought.

I knew about the MN on CWGC headstones

Don't know to what extent MN was used for WW1 MM veterans - certainly more for serving MN in WW2

Hence the enquiry about dates.

We both/all may yet find more.

:-) M

 

I think you can probably find the precise date via a simple online search.  It doesn’t really add much for the original inquirer who knew that the badges were a mixture of WW1 and WW2, although he was at the time puzzled by what family connection there might be with the merchant fleet.

Edited 21 November , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[RNCVR]

4 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes, after WW1, I’m afraid I was still editing my post.

 

I’m not sure how the merchant activity on Canada’s Great Lakes compared between WW1 and WW2 but imagine it was similar, or probably increased.  Forum member @RNCVR can perhaps advise.

 

 

Regret I am unable to assist as I am not knowledgeable on MN, as I never collected to them, but I do know that a lot of shipping goes thru our Great Lakes within eastern Canada, to the USA, & overseas.  

It was likely greater during wartime as well.  A considerable amount of raw materials went overseas from Canada to Uk during both wars.

[FROGSMILE]

52 minutes ago, RNCVR said:

 

 

Regret I am unable to assist as I am not knowledgeable on MN, as I never collected to them, but I do know that a lot of shipping goes thru our Great Lakes within eastern Canada, to the USA, & overseas.  

It was likely greater during wartime as well.  A considerable amount of raw materials went overseas from Canada to Uk during both wars.

Thank you Bryan, I can well imagine how busy the Great Lakes must have been.

[RNCVR]

A huge amount of shipping goes south thru the Welland canal near St Catharines.

I expect during wartime it would have been considerably greater.

Google Welland canal, will give you an idea of size & shipping.

 

Hope you are remaining safe!

[RNCVR]

On 14/04/2020 at 14:14, FROGSMILE said:

Canada was always important to Britain in both World Wars, especially in terms of the Royal Navy and its naval base there to cover North Atlantic trade.  The Royal Canadian Navy contributed significantly and there was coordination of convoy escorts, for example, through the Admiralty.

 

Putting it in simple easy to understand terms - Canada's Navy (regular & reserve forces) won the Battle of the Atlantic.  Uk would never never have survived the uboats if it were not for Canada's contribution to the convoys crossing the Atlantic!

 

Best to all....Bryan

[RNCVR]

On 14/04/2020 at 14:21, T Bone said:

Indeed. I was even named after the first ship my dad served on, HMCS Prince David (F89), the David part, not the Prince 

 TBone, how about posting some details of your father's RCN\RCNVR wartime service?

Might be able to assist you interpreting some of his Service record entries.

 

Best...Bryan

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, RNCVR said:

 

Putting it in simple easy to understand terms - Canada's Navy (regular & reserve forces) won the Battle of the Atlantic.  

I think “contributed significantly” is more accurate.  Otherwise it risks sounding a bit too Trump-like.

Edited 21 November , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[T Bone]

On 21/11/2020 at 08:34, RNCVR said:

 TBone, how about posting some details of your father's RCN\RCNVR wartime service?

Might be able to assist you interpreting some of his Service record entries.

 

Best...Bryan

Hi Bryan, just signed in again after being AWOL from this site for a bit.

 

I do have my dad's records packed away but here are the Coles notes version from memory.

 

Dad joined up August 1940 at HMCS Star, Hamilton Ontario but it seems that he did not arrive in Halifax until Nov 1940.

After his training he was first assigned to the main decoding office in Halifax as a signalman.

 

He was then assigned to HMCS Prince David, again as a signalman (he loved being on the bridge).

At that time the David was in the Atlantic but later she made the passage to the west coast via the Panama (I have pictures).

 

During July 1942 the David posed as a British light cruiser for the movie Commandos Strike at Dawn (again I have pictures). After the movie wrapped she was then assigned along with her sister ships to convoy duty during the Aleutian Campaign.

After the Aleutian campaign HMCS Prince David was in for her refit for her more famous role as an LSI (M).

 

Dad was transferred back to Halifax and assigned to HMCS Alberni.

Here his story gets a bit muddled for me; it seems he had leave and by the time he arrived at his new assignment there was no room onboard.

Dad's version has it that they were taking crews across to man new ships or replace losses, I don't know.

At any rate he was reassigned to old Norwegian whaler converted for minesweeping duties off of Halifax, HMCS Suderoy IV  (I always accused him of getting into some major trouble and was sent out in a low freeboard whaler as punishment. He never divulged the whole story but he said he loved the old ship and especially her skipper).

 

At some point early in 1944 he was sent back to the west coast and was assigned to the newly built HMCS Daerwood, again a minesweeper.

During tis time he was badly injured during a bad storm off the west coast of Vancouver Island.

For some strange reason he was sent to RCAF hospital Colwood to convalesce (he was even given an RCAF uniform and appropriate rank whilst he recovered). 

 

That was about it, he was given leave and traveled back to Hamilton to marry to my mom, still in uniform and fully expecting to be part of the invasion of Japan....

 

Dad passed away May of 2006 at the age of 88 and my mom passed away November of 2019 at the age of 100 years five months

They had been sweethearts since the age of 13. 

 

As a tribute to may dad and his shipmates I developed most of the Wiki page for HMCS Prince David (F89): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMCS_Prince_David_(F89)

 

Cheers

 David

 Gibsons BC

 

 

[Michelle Young]

Unfortunately, WW2 is outside the forum remit. Perhaps conversations regarding your fathers service can be carried on via personal messages. 

 

Michelle