Pte. Wlliam Thorpe, 8561, 1/King's Own R.Lancaster

[daggers]

I have had 'A Foreign Field' by Ben Macintyre for several years but until going through the shelves for a good read, while libraries are closed, I found I had never read it.
It is a true story of a handful of British soldiers, separated from their various units in the German advances of 1914, who link up and are hidden by French villagers. The author clearly spent much time with the descendants and survivors of the villagers and was allowed access to local archives, but he does not allow his research to interrupt his narrative.

One of the soldiers is named as William Thorpe, from Liverpool, who had joined the King's Own Royal Lancaster Regiment in 1910 as a regular soldier and was 36 years of age in late 1914. He had a wife and three young children back in Liverpool, but no other details appear in the book about where he lived or his former occupation.
After many months in hiding the four main characters of the book are revealed to the occupying Germans, and after brief 'trial' were executed by firing squad in May 1916. Their graves  lie in the village churchyard at Le Catelet, just north of St Quentin in Picardy.

I have not been able to trace William Thorpe's army records, as so many were lost in a WW2 bombing, but found that he was entitled to the 1914 Star, Victory and British War Medals, which were probably sent to his widow. The Star card shows his number as 8561.   'Soldiers Died in the Great War' has 'KIA', killed in action, against his name and has his number as '8501'. His entry on the Vic/BMW Medal Roll has '85#1', where the # is an obscure, possible deleted or corrected digit.The CWGC's Debt of Honour Register entry includes no family information.  I have been told that the Soldiers' Effects dated 20 Sept 1919 shows they were sent to William's brother Alfred J. Thorpe, and not to his wife or widow.  Would this give an address?

Without more detail of his wife's name or an address I have failed to find a census record for the family, which might be under one of the Liverpool districts: Kirkdale, Everton, Walton, West Derby, etc.
I would be very interested to know if more is known or can be found about this man.
Daggers

 

Top

[George Rayner]

Soldiers Effects from Ancestry say and note date is 26.8.1914

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/60506/42511_6117463_0039-00024?pid=78122&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv%3D1%26dbid%3D60506%26h%3D78122%26tid%3D%26pid%3D%26usePUB%3Dtrue%26_phsrc%3DcIF717%26_phstart%3DsuccessSource&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=cIF717&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&_ga=2.52706536.1155620529.1585901748-1233040757.1573990318

It is free this weekend!

 

George

 

[George Rayner]

In fact there are THREE!

The second is scored through without completion and this is the other

 

 

George

[George Rayner]

And to make it more interesting there is a W Thorpe #8771 in KORLR too

 

George

[daggers]

Thanks!  Still taking in the earlier info.

D

[George Rayner]

Ignore #8771 he is from Essex and joined up in 1906.

On the same record sheet as your WT

 

George

[daggers]

OK, thanks.  That makes it easier.

D

[davidbohl]

This looks good 1911 on FamilySearch, wife and 3 kids

81 Greig St, Toxteth

Dave

 

Name:    
William Thorpe
Event Type:    
Census
Event Date:    
1911
Event Place:    
Liverpool, Lancashire, England, United Kingdom
County:    
Lancashire
Parish:    
Toxteth Park
Sub-District:    
Toxteth Park South West
Sub-District Number:    
2
District Number:    
454
Enumeration District:    
7
Registration District:    
Toxteth Park
Gender:    
Male
Age:    
34
Marital Status:    
Married
Marital Status (Original):    
MARRIED
Occupation:    
RAILWAY PORTER
Number in Family:    
3
Birth Year (Estimated):    
1877
Birthplace:    
Liverpool England, Lancashire
Relationship to Head of Household:    
Head
Schedule Type:    
271
Page Number:    
1
Registration Number:    
RG14
Piece/Folio:    
541
Affiliate Record Identifier:    
GBC/1911/RG14/22234/0541/1
Household    Role    Sex    Age    Birthplace
William Thorpe    Head    Male    34    Liverpool England, Lancashire
Elizabeth N Thorpe    Wife    Female    29    Liverpool England, Lancashire
Elizabeth N Thorpe    Daughter    Female    10    Liverpool England, Lancashire
William C Thorpe    Son    Male    8    Liverpool England, Lancashire
Joseph Thorpe    Son    Male    4    Liverpool England, Lancashire

 

 

FamilySearch also says RWF

Name:William Thorpe

Event Type:Military Service

Event Year:1914

Residence Place:Liverpool, Lancashire, England

Age:36

Military Company/Regiment:Royal Welsh Fusiliers

Military Regiment:97390

Military Battalion:23rd Battalion

Birth Year (Estimated):1878

Birthplace:Toxteth, Lancashire, England

Edited 11 April , 2020 by davidbohl
regt

[daggers]

Thanks for those, David.  The Macintyre book certainly implied that William had joined up earlier than 1911, but the family and his age look right.  I’ll have another look around with those in mind tomorrow.  The RWF info seems unrelated, but you never know. 

There is a W. Thorpe named on the memorial in St John the Evangelist, Knotty Ash (Ken Dodd’s local church), but the vicar can’t help during the lockout.  
D
 

[ss002d6252]

31 minutes ago, daggers said:

Thanks for those, David.  The Macintyre book certainly implied that William had joined up earlier than 1911, but the family and his age look right.  I’ll have another look around with those in mind tomorrow.  The RWF info seems unrelated, but you never know. 

There is a W. Thorpe named on the memorial in St John the Evangelist, Knotty Ash (Ken Dodd’s local church), but the vicar can’t help during the lockout.  
D
 

#8561 was issued 1905/06

 

Quote

8489 joined on 9th January 1905

8556 17 March 1905
8847 joined on 9th March 1906

https://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/2010/09/kings-own-royal-lancaster-regiment-1st.html

 

In Oct 1904 - standard enlistment changed to 9&3 years
In Sep 1906 - standard enlistment changed to 7&5 years

 

 

Craig

[daggers]

Thank you Craig.  Slow start-up this morning, but I'll digest all the helpful input and see where it takes me.

D

[davidbohl]

These are all the Thorpe's in Liverpool, 1914 Gores.

The Doddy Thorpe is probably the William in Old Swan.

There is an Alfred in Greenland St

Dave

 

 

 

 

[davidbohl]

Here's the gravestone from https://www.ww1cemeteries.com/le-catelet-churchyard.html

 

dave

[daggers]

Many thanks again for new material.  I am working on a timeline of events, including William's marriage [1899 - Christmas Day], 1901 and 1911 census, electoral registers possible army service etc. I am puzzled about the RWF detail.

The address of 81 Greig Street stayed with the family into the 1950s, but I think the street has disappeared since.

D

 

 

Edited 12 April , 2020 by daggers
typo corrected

[davidbohl]

A few more clues in the newspapers about Commandant Evers from the BNA

Dave

 

 

GERMAN COMMANDANT

... nt of the Matin slates that a second Council of War has demanded the extradition of several officers. Among these isCommandant Evers, who at Le Catelet had five English prisoners shot after having first comcplled them to e&rry their own coffins to the ...

Published:Friday 10 October 1919
Newspaper:Pall Mall Gazette
County:London, England
Type:Article|Words:59|Page:4|Tags:none

 

ENGLISH FORCED TO CARRY

... the Matin states that a second Council of War has demanded the extradition several German officers. . Among these vsCommandant Evers, who Catelet had five English prisoners shot, after having first compelled them to carry their own coffins to the place ...

Published:Friday 10 October 1919
Newspaper:Globe
County:London, England
Type:Article|Words:132|Page:4|Tags:none

 

TRANS-AMERICAN FLICIITL

... Mann'. states that a second Council of War has :demanded the extradition of several German officers. Among three ieCommandant Evers. who, at be Catelet, had five English prisoner* shot triter having first compelled them to carry their own coffins to ...

Published:Friday 10 October 1919
Newspaper:Newcastle Evening Chronicle
County:Northumberland, England

 

CARRIED THEIR COFFINS

... secord court-martial at Lille. A terrible charge has been formulated against Evers, who was chief of the hammandantur atLe Catelet, aad was n magistrate at Hanover. Beers presided at a courtmartial, before which flvo British soldiere. who had concealed ...

Published:Saturday 11 October 1919
Newspaper:Belfast Telegraph

 

VITALITY OF FRANCE

... Among those included is a certain Major Eyrie, stho atLe Catelet, con. I demned five British s , liliers to shot without any justification, nutting them carry their can (vane to the place ofexecution.—neuter. ...

Published:Monday 13 October 1919
Newspaper:Newcastle Daily Chronicle

 

Fresh Light on a Famous Speech

... among the ruins were eventually compelled privation to aurrendc? to the Germane. They were shot the same evening by orderMajor Evers, town commandant Gatelet. It LOW appear* that when the 12th Battalion of the London Regirtent entered Neufma.sor.. the eve ...

Published:Wednesday 30 November 1921
Newspaper:Yorkshire Evening Post
County:Yorkshire, England

 

SHOT BY HUNS After 20 Months in

... concerns the much-discussed incidont of tho six British soldiers who were fou.id dressed in civilian clothes hiding nearLe Cateletand shot' thoro as spies on May 22, 1916. The men became separated from their units during the retreat in 1914, and after ...

Published:Thursday 01 December 1921
Newspaper:Dundee Evening Telegraph

 

[davidbohl]

A bit more info on the "Old Swan" William Thorpe, I think the Ellerslie Rd address is a postal address for the Cymric Lawn Tennis Club, its actually in Tuebrook.

The other William Thorpe in Mallow Rd is probably the same person living just off Newsham Park.

 

 

Amazingly there is a club photo on ebay https://www.ebay.com/itm/Original-Cymric-Lawn-Tennis-Club-Players-Early-c-1900s-Postcard-/192981117959

So do we have a Welsh connection for him ?

 

Just the Dryburg Street, Kirkdale chap to suss out now.

edit: He's a tannery worker b.1880, married to Sarah Ann, so doesn't look good.

Perished as well.

Gunner THORPE, WILLIAM

Service Number1610

Died 18/09/1916

Aged 36

1st/1st Lancs. Heavy Bty.
Royal Garrison Artillery

Husband of Sarah Ann Thorpe, of 8, Dryburgh St., Kirkdale, Liverpool.

 

Dave

 

 

Edited 13 April , 2020 by davidbohl
Kirkdale chap

[Hywyn]

On 12/04/2020 at 15:35, daggers said:

 I am puzzled about the RWF detail.

 

 

 

 

William Thorpe 97390 RWF has records. A Ships Steward. Enlisted in Cheshires 12304 in Sept 1914 and eventually ended up as G/112708 Royal Fusiliers. Discharge address in  Feb 1919 = brother George William Thorpe 127 Royston Street, Edge Hill. Might be more in the file.

 

See also 'pension' records of Cheshires 5973 William Thorpe who served roughly 1898 to 1910. There are some records there for 112708 William Thorpe but I haven't thoroughly digested them. Possibly the Family Search record has been attached to the wrong William Thorpe?

 

edit: The first lot of info I found on FMP and the second on Ancestry Pensions. I see now that the Ancestry one contains the first lot.

Edited 13 April , 2020 by Hywyn

[davidbohl]

According to this newspaper on the British Newspaper Archive Pte William Thorpe #8561 was reported missing in this edition 4th January 1916.

I have read that the four soldiers of Le Catelet were left behind the lines a lot earlier so it seems a long time before he is reported missing.

Dave

 

THE ROLL OF HONOUR

... Bottomley 3/19244, Fee 10/1233. MISSING. King's Own (Royal Lancaster Regt.).—lst Batt.: 8347, Buckley 8239, Marshall 10112. Thorpe 8561. Cheshire Regt.—lst Batt.: Cpl. Lee 8560. INDIAN FORCES. Various dates. Previously reported missing, now reported killed*: ...

Published:Tuesday 04 January 1916
Newspaper:Manchester Courier and Lancashire General Advertiser
County:Lancashire, England

[daggers]

A belated follow-up to a complex story.  The following is compiled from what others and I have discovered:

THORPE, William

 

William was one of a handful of British soldiers who became separated from their units after the Retreat from Mons in the first months of the Great War.  The author Ben Macintyre wrote ‘A Foreign Field’ published in 2001, which is an account of the help given by French villagers, who concealed William and others until they were betrayed to the Germans.  After the formality of a trial, they were shot.  William’s grave lies in the churchyard at Le Catelet, near St Quentin in Picardy.

As this was an unusual story and involved a man from Liverpool, I decided to explore further; much of the following is based on help from members of the Great War Forum.

 

Birth registered West Derby/Toxteth 1st Qr 1877 (vol 8b p237)

Baptised 4 Feb 1877, St John the Baptist, Park Road, Toxteth, son of John Harry Thorpe and his wife Rebecca.  John’s occupation manager, public house, abode North Hill Street. 

[John and Rebecca Emmett marriage: 8 March 1865, St Michael in the Hamlet, his occ: mariner, his address 23 Park Street, hers Park Street.]

 

1881 census: Clive Street, Toxteth Park, 2 court, 4 house.  John H, rigger, 40, Rebecca, 38, John H, 15, Thomas 13, Isabella 7, William 4. All born in Liverpool.

 

1891 census: not found

 

1899: marriage of William and Elizabeth Nancy Ellison, St Matthew, Hill Street, Toxteth, 25 Dec.  William 21, bach., railway porter, his father John, sailor, dec’d.  Address for both 26 Greenleaf Street.

 

1900: Bapt. of daughter Elizabeth, 1 August, abode 26 Greenleaf Street.  William: railway employee.

 

1901 census: 7 Leighton Terrace, [Grafton St.] Toxteth Park.  William 24, railway porter, Elizabeth, 19, Elizabeth 8 mths.

 

1905:  William’s regimental number 8561 points to an enlistment around March/April 1905 [thanks to Craig on GWF).  Likely term of service 9 years with colours then 3 on reserve.  No service papers seem to have survived.  [Macintyre’s book gives an enlistment date of 1910 and states that William obtained his army third class certificate of education in 1911.]

 

1911 census: 81 Greig Street [Park Road area], Toxteth Park.  William, 34, Elizabeth N., 29, Elizabeth N, 10, William C. 8, Joseph, 4. [this address continues to house Thorpe family until the 1950s, from electoral rolls].

 

1914: William landed in France, according to his medal index card.  This agrees with the official date of landing for 1st Battalion, King’s Own Royal Lancaster Regiment.

 

Other comments:

Herr Evers: an investigation into his conduct came to nothing, according to Macintyre.  He died in 1926.

The Thorpe in Royal Welsh Fusiliers is not our man, as he has events listed which post-date ‘our’ William’s death.

I tried to contact the museum of the King’s Own at Lancaster but had an instant reply: it is closed for the whole of this year.

Conclusion:

The enlistment of Thorpe as a regular does not fit with his occupation of railway porter.  Have we been chasing the wrong William Thorpe?

Daggers

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ss002d6252]

 

29 minutes ago, daggers said:

A belated follow-up to a complex story.  The following is compiled from what others and I have discovered:

THORPE, William

 

 

 

William was one of a handful of British soldiers who became separated from their units after the Retreat from Mons in the first months of the Great War.  The author Ben Macintyre wrote ‘A Foreign Field’ published in 2001, which is an account of the help given by French villagers, who concealed William and others until they were betrayed to the Germans.  After the formality of a trial, they were shot.  William’s grave lies in the churchyard at Le Catelet, near St Quentin in Picardy.

 

As this was an unusual story and involved a man from Liverpool, I decided to explore further; much of the following is based on help from members of the Great War Forum.

 

 

 

Birth registered West Derby/Toxteth 1st Qr 1877 (vol 8b p237)

 

Baptised 4 Feb 1877, St John the Baptist, Park Road, Toxteth, son of John Harry Thorpe and his wife Rebecca.  John’s occupation manager, public house, abode North Hill Street. 

 

[John and Rebecca Emmett marriage: 8 March 1865, St Michael in the Hamlet, his occ: mariner, his address 23 Park Street, hers Park Street.]

 

 

 

1881 census: Clive Street, Toxteth Park, 2 court, 4 house.  John H, rigger, 40, Rebecca, 38, John H, 15, Thomas 13, Isabella 7, William 4. All born in Liverpool.

 

 

 

1891 census: not found

 

 

 

1899: marriage of William and Elizabeth Nancy Ellison, St Matthew, Hill Street, Toxteth, 25 Dec.  William 21, bach., railway porter, his father John, sailor, dec’d.  Address for both 26 Greenleaf Street.

 

 

 

1900: Bapt. of daughter Elizabeth, 1 August, abode 26 Greenleaf Street.  William: railway employee.

 

 

 

1901 census: 7 Leighton Terrace, [Grafton St.] Toxteth Park.  William 24, railway porter, Elizabeth, 19, Elizabeth 8 mths.

 

 

 

1905:  William’s regimental number 8561 points to an enlistment around March/April 1905 [thanks to Craig on GWF).  Likely term of service 9 years with colours then 3 on reserve.  No service papers seem to have survived.  [Macintyre’s book gives an enlistment date of 1910 and states that William obtained his army third class certificate of education in 1911.]

 

 

 

1911 census: 81 Greig Street [Park Road area], Toxteth Park.  William, 34, Elizabeth N., 29, Elizabeth N, 10, William C. 8, Joseph, 4. [this address continues to house Thorpe family until the 1950s, from electoral rolls].

 

 

 

1914: William landed in France, according to his medal index card.  This agrees with the official date of landing for 1st Battalion, King’s Own Royal Lancaster Regiment.

 

 

 

Other comments:

 

Herr Evers: an investigation into his conduct came to nothing, according to Macintyre.  He died in 1926.

 

The Thorpe in Royal Welsh Fusiliers is not our man, as he has events listed which post-date ‘our’ William’s death.

 

I tried to contact the museum of the King’s Own at Lancaster but had an instant reply: it is closed for the whole of this year.

 

Conclusion:

The enlistment of Thorpe as a regular does not fit with his occupation of railway porter.  Have we been chasing the wrong William Thorpe?

Daggers

 

 

 

Now I've had some time to look. The war gratuity is usually a very good diagnostic for determining if a man was a regular or not etc etc.

 

#8561's, however, is a strange one - £10 (which would be paid gross for a serving soldier) is £5 more than what a Private was entitled to as War Gratuity when he died in 1914 (£5 was the minimum for a man with less than 12 months war time service - only war service being considered for the war gratuity).

 

By way of considering other possibilities and just throwing out a possibility (which may be totally wrong!).

 

A soldier who enlisted in 1910 however would have been entitled to a service gratuity based on his overall service. This would be paid out when he entered the reserves or was otherwise discharged, if earlier. Rejoining/Enlisting in 1910 would give him £5 service gratuity by 1914 (minimum was £2 then £1 per full/part additional year). On death he was entitled to the £5 war gratuity + £5 service gratuity, which in this case, could have been noted as 'war gratuity'.

 

I wonder if #8561 had re-entered the army from his reserve period in 1910 ? - This however then rules out the 1911 man.

 

An alternative, although I can't see service records to assist is that he was a special reservist from 1910 - I'm not sure how service gratuity was collated for a special reservist though and I can't see if there was a 1910 range for the SR that would give a #8561 number.

 

Craig

 

 

[daggers]

Thanks very much for your interest and informed comments.  Without more of a service record I can’t see how to make progress and I don’t think it is going to appear now.

Thanks to you, David and other contributors.

D

 

[davidbohl]

Perhaps we might have to hang fire for the 1921 census and see if the brother Alfred J surfaces

Dave

[daggers]

I have a slight hope that my email to Lancaster Museum might find its way to the KORR curator, but am not holding my breath.  2021 seems a long way off!

Thanks again for your input.

 

Before putting my Thorpe file away I had a look at Alfred, 6 Greenland Street in case any link to William appeared.  Alfred was 59 in 1911 and appears to have followed his father in the house and business.  Successive census details reveal no likely link to William.

Now filed!

D.

[davidbohl]

I keep drifting back to this chap and have cast the net a bit further.

On the 1901 Ireland Census is a William Thorpe in a household of  C.P.O/P.O Instructors.

He's 24 (b. about 1877) and born in England, so certainly worth a further look.

Is this a Royal Navy establishment ?

Dave

 

Residents of a house 34 in Cove (Kinsale Rural, Cork)

Show all information

Surname	Forename	Age	Sex	Relation to head	Religion	Birthplace	Occupation	Literacy	Irish Language	Marital Status	Specified Illnesses
Ruddock	Jagoe	58	Male	Head of Family	Church of Ireland	Co Cork	R.N. Pensioner	Read and write	-	Married	-
Ruddock	Catherine	49	Female	Wife	Church of Ireland	Co Cork	-	Read and write	-	Married	-
Finlay	Bessie	17	Female	Niece	Church of Ireland	England	Scholar	Read and write	-	Not Married	-
Brees	Alfred	39	Male	Boarder	Church of Ireland	England	C.P.O. Instructor	Read and write	-	Married	-
Roberts	Geoge	28	Male	Boarder	Church of Ireland	England	2nd Class P.O. Instructor	Read and write	-	Not Married	-
Gillingham	John	26	Male	Boarder	Roman Catholic	England	2nd Class P.O. Instructor	Read and write	-	Not Married	-
Thorpe	William	24	Male	Boarder	Church of Ireland	England	2nd Class P.O. Instructor	Read and write	-	Not Married	-

 

 

 Summercove  Coast Guard Station, used for training https://northoltgrange.wordpress.com/2016/04/11/the-kinsale-coastguards/

 

Edited 25 April , 2020 by davidbohl
Coastguard

[daggers]

Those ranks/rates certainly look like Royal Navy, but nothing else there to link to our quarry.

D