Lee Enfield dated 1916 strange markings

[BaronVonRogers]

Hellomall, great to be part of this forum! I am a relatively new collector and recently purchase a lovely looking Lee Enfield MKIII*. Some markings on the barrel have me questioning the authenticity etc and wondered if your experts could help me out.

On the wrist looks gen , crown GR, 1916, Sht LE etc. Top of the barrel is a 3 inverted and 49? Vendor claims this is a unit stamp, 49th Battalion AIF. I'm unsure reading through previous threads.

Love to hear some views if you guys have time?

Photos attached.

Thanks in advance.

The Baron.

[4thGordons]

Hello, welcome to the forum

If it is a unit mark it is not in a format I have seen before, 

 

Although I cannot be sure it actually looks as though under the serial number there might be a Australian property mark (Broad arrow inside a D) - with the exception of the numbers all the other markings appear to be standard inspection stamps / proofing marks.

 

The font used in the numbering looks like that frequently found on rifles that have been marked in Indian service. This is possibility is at least circumstantially supported by the fact that your rifle is wearing an Indian WWII and later fore-end, not original to the rifle.

 

Have you looked at the markings on the barrel under the upper handguard? that may give some further clues - particularly if it has been replaced.

 

Chris

 

[BaronVonRogers]

Hi Chris, thanks for coming back to me so quickly. On the butt of the rifle is a brass disc with what the vendor calls an Australian marking, an A inside a pointed star?. I will double check for other markings and revert back. Based on the markings though would you say it's an original piece from the correct period, notwithstanding potential post ww1 modifications for other conflicts?

Love the forum too, not sure why I haven't  been here before!

Cheers,

Ian.

PS next to the star is what appears to be another date mark 2/17, taken by the vendor to be the date February 1917 when this rifle was probably distributed to its Regiment/unit?

Edited 10 April , 2020 by BaronVonRogers
Extra text under PS

[4thGordons]

That is a Australian (Lithgow) stamp yes.

Trouble is buttstocks and stock disks can easily be switched around in minutes (and can be found for sale all over the place) -- however...it also looks like an Australian butt with the markings and numbers stamped into it (the image is too small for me to tell if the numbers match? is it A5039 in on the butt?)

 

Do all the serial numbers match - they should be found on the rear of the bolt handle, the receiver, the barrel (under the upper handguard - this can be gently prised off it is held in place with two spring clips), the underside of the rear sight, the bayonet boss of the nosecap (where the bayonet ring mounts under the muzzle)?

 

Is this a live rifle or a deact? There appears to be an EU 99? stamp with which I am not familiar and which I thought might relate to deactivation? Others may know better than I.

 

Would it be possible to get some overall views of the rifle to get a sense of the piece as a whole

 

My impression from what I see here is that the fore-end, the butt and the upper handguard are all replacements - possibly in later service (India purchased quite a number of rifles from Australia post WWII many of which were refinished in various ways) or possibly after having been sold out of service by someone restoring the look of the rifle, or during a deactivation process - if it is a deact. The only obvious non-period (1916) element I see here is the fore-end (which has a metal reinforcing strap at the rear that was not fitted until WWII vintage and later rifles) so this aside it looks as it should and the mix/match nature could be consistent with a rifle returned to/supplied to Australia post WWI (Australia had sent Britain ShtLEs early in the conflict which were repaid in kind at the end) used in Australia and later supplied to India) or it could be the result of someone restoring a rifle with available parts out of service. Impossible to be definitive on that.

 

Chris

Edited 10 April , 2020 by 4thGordons

[BaronVonRogers]

Hello again Chris, I attach some further photos. It is indeed a deactivated weapon hence the EU/GB marking. 

Ref the buttstock, hard to tell if it's the same number, the piece is still in the UK , my brother is organising its postage. I'm just hoping it is a genuine WW1 piece, even if it's been altered post war etc.

See what you think of the extra photos.

Best,

Ian.

[4thGordons]

There is no doubt in my mind that the reciever is a genuine 1916 Enfield MkIII* receiver. I would suspect it has been re barreled later.

The butt is Australian (so not original to the rifle) and appears to me to be numbered A6846

The fore-end is Indian (mid WWII and on) and actually looks as though (given the staining) it came from a Grenade Firing rifle where the fore-end would have been wrapped with copper wire or (sometimes) sheet metal. The plug is where a cross bolt reinforce has been removed and the space filled.

The front sight protector is of the correct type, the rear sight protector seems to be a post war "flat" Indian one (it is symmetrical rather than having an offset on the right side) so that would not be period correct in appearance.

I suspect this rifle was either a rifle that saw long hard Indian service and was sold on and deactivated or possibly was made up from available components on the original receiver - because SHtLEs remained in service in India for so long Indian parts (especially things like fore-ends where originals are expensive and hard to find) were much more available for much longer. I am not all that familiar with the deact market in the UK but from what I have seen many look like this.

 

As a deactivated rifle it looks the part, particularly looking from the right side where the cross-bolt will be less visible. The most glaring non period part would be the rear sight protector and that could be replaced with a correct component and then it would look correct. Of course only a few rather anoraky types like me are even going to notice that!

Here is a 1917 Lithgow (with a broken front handguard) but showing the offset rear sight protector that would have been on yours in 1916 (also the same style of butt disk and marking)

 

 

and also an Indian GF rifle with the wire wrapping which I believe is the source of the staining on your fore-end, and the flat rear sight protector and metal rear fore-end reinforce.

 

 

 

Chris

Edited 10 April , 2020 by 4thGordons

[BaronVonRogers]

Hi Chris, superb knowledge sir so thank you so much for having a look, slightly miffed but all the same, happy that some parts are at least genuine/of the period. I suspect getting hold of original pieces becomes more an more difficult, and expensive as time passes,  any tips or pointers would be gratefully accepted however!

Thanks once again for your time and knowledge and I wish you a great weekend and Easter.

All the best,

Ian.

[4thGordons]

You are more than welcome!

 

Original fore-ends are now very hard to come by and frankly not worth doing on a deact like this given the expense likely to be involved (probably close to the price of the rifle)

A correct style rear sight protector should be pretty easy to find however and were you of a mind you could probably replace that pretty easily. It is a bit involved because you would have to remove the nose cap and trigger guard and then the fore end. The rear sight protector is fixed to the fore end by a short bolt from above down into a recessed slotted nut through the fore end - so you put a screwdriver in the nut from below and unscrew from above from the barrel channel. The protector then lifts out - and new one drops in and you reassemble. Because this is a non firing rifle you do not have to worry about tightening all the screws the correct amount and ensuring the bedding is perfect etc (but you do have to be a little careful not to mess up the screw heads etc.

I suspect you might pick one of these up on eBay or the like for about 10-15 pounds.

Having said this I do not know the legal status of replacing parts on a deact (even if they are only appearance and have no impact on function) the law is a funny thing sometimes - the parts themselves are not restricted in any way but it may be worth checking if you were thinking of doing that.

 

Personally I'm not sure it's worth the effort - enjoy your rifle for what it is - a representative example of a rifle type that remained in service for the best part of a century and exhibits elements of all of that.

 

Cheers,

Chris

 

[BaronVonRogers]

Hello again Chris, one final question, when you talk about rebarrelling; what exactly did that entail? As per description, changing the barrel of the weapon? Plus what other items? Therefore the original piece is the bolt action/trigger mehanism in this case?

Just trying to get a handle on the details, so thank you once again!

Kindest regards,

Ian.

[4thGordons]

Hi Ian

Yes barrels wear and eventually need to be replaced, they can also be damaged, become rusted , cord worn etc. There are a complex set of symbols used to indicate various conditions on rifles short of those needing a re barrel. It is entirely possible that your rifle barrel is original, looking under the handguard would probably tell you.

So the barrel - which is threaded - screws into the receiver (very tightly!) replacing them during the service life of a weapon was reasonably common - depending on usage/care/conditions etc

The flat you see under the half-moon cut-out in the upper handguard s the barrel knox-form this is often covered with stampings including the serial number (matched to rifle if it is an official change) and on British barrels the date in two year form (so '18 would be 1918 and '27 would be 1927 etc) on the left side down by the wood line. There will also be various proof and inspection stamps.

Rebarrelling in and of itself would not necessitate the replacement of any other parts although if a rifle were being rebarrelled everything would be checked and any suspect component replaced to return the rifle to factory spec.  The one thing that might be changed as a matter of course is the rear sight base because it is attached to the barrel.

I can photograph a barrel for you if it would be of interest.

 

In a multi decade service life (particularly during wartime) rifles would often be inspected and reissued -- sometimes they would be fully overhauled and reissued - this is known as an FTR (Factory Thorough Refinish) and is usually stamped on the rifle FTR and date or on Indian Rifles FR and date - this is usually stamped on the metal wrist on the left side of the rifle below the safety lever.So if you see F.R. 45 for example that would mean it was officially returned to original specs in India in 1945. It is not all that unusual to see several dates there. The last FTR program for Sht LEs in Britain was in 1953/4 (although these were being done for overseas supply)

 

It is really quite unusual (not impossible but unusual)to find a 100+ year old rifle with all its original parts because like any tool they were repaired, upgraded and modified throughout their service life and collectors often pay more attention to the particulars than did unit armourers whose primary concern was functionality.

So collectors might seek replacement parts from the same manufacturer - armourers would just grab the next one in the bin of parts.

 

Cheers,

Chris

Edited 10 April , 2020 by 4thGordons

[N White]

Ian- below is an Indian FTR mark from 1929, of my 1917 made Enfield.

 

You will note it has the later forend style as yours, and has been rebarreled, as Chris suggests yours may have been.

 

Even the buttplate is new, stamped RFI (Rifle Factory Ishaspore).

 

So, is it original ww1, not for a long time.  Is it functionanally identical, and a genuine British arm? Absolutely.

[BaronVonRogers]

Marvellous, thanks for your input.

Kind regards 

Ian.

[BaronVonRogers]

Chris, thanks once more for the detailed explanation, I would indeed like the picture of the barrel if not too much trouble, also could you tell me exactly where to look for the serial numbers? Am I right in thinking the serial number of mine is the A5309 number shown here?

Cheers 

Ian.

[4thGordons]

I'll take the picture of the barrel later today.

On pg9 of this little leaflet there is a picture with all the serial number locations marked. Some of the other information may be of interest too.

Yes the serial number on your receiver is A5039 on an all-matching rifle this would be repeated on the rear flat of the bolt handle, the barrel(under the upper handguard), the underside of the rear sight slide, below the muzzle on the boss upon which the bayonet mounts, It would also have been stamped onto the fore-end just behind the nose-cap (front sight protector)

Chris

[4thGordons]

Enfield cypher/marking for you to compare

Barrel with sights in place

Right side with Serial number and inspection stamps, the cut out in the thread is where the extractor goes

Left side with proof, inspection stamp, date ('18) and broad arrow.