Jump to content
Free downloads from TNA ×
The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

1st battalion Irish Regt group pic 1914 people of please


arantxa

Recommended Posts

Hello I’ve had this a long time from a car boot I believe Cos of the photographers stamp it was taken prior to deployment to France in Ww1 can any one tell me who some of the officers are  Sorry for reflection. It’s a big picture 

942C05AB-ECF1-4E7B-BDA4-5A2F45463075.jpeg

AAC3BF50-3590-4A46-8986-11DD4BDA7280.jpeg

A5C0BFCB-5DD3-4F9B-82DF-0232F54E8183.jpeg

8A822733-7E15-44AB-A311-F9A3D0A4572F.jpeg

89312B16-502F-4AF5-9EC6-392F06CA086E.jpeg

5145D23C-3CAF-486B-BA86-AD24BEB2F4A4.jpeg

B3B86771-46F5-414D-A05A-F2F9AD21CECB.jpeg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

90B45CF7-321A-4A40-A646-169DD90B9EB8.jpeg

F548F399-1C0C-47FC-A701-44B6F1407065.jpeg

3555A516-788B-49BE-BF67-66F6F60623F7.jpeg

16C7C7A2-0EEE-4139-B10A-C49638F61189.jpeg

DAC86D9C-77B5-451E-838C-36E29342E3E3.jpeg

71159E6F-A3CF-4730-AC22-0B974A83087E.jpeg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What a super picture!  It's almost certainly the officers of the 1st or 2nd Battalions of the Royal Irish Regiment just before the war and if you look for an Army List for 1913 (many Army Lists can be accessed online I believe) you will be able to get an idea of the officers via the roll, although it won't assist you with precise IDs.  

 

In the centre is the Regimental Colonel (aka 'Colonel of the Regiment' - a military patriarch for each regiment), who is wearing a Type B (stepped open collar) Blue Patrol uniform.  His rank is Brigadier General and he too should be named in the Army List under the regimental details.  On his left is the battalion's Officer Commanding (nowadays called Commanding Officer), and on the Brigadier General's right is a full Colonel, staff officer, probably commanding the regimental HQ and depot at Victoria Barracks, Clonmel.  In 1922 Victoria barracks was renamed 'Kickham' after an Irish poet, by the Irish Free State government.'

 

Before WW1 the 'home' establishment battalion was the 2nd Battalion, who were based in Devonport's 'Raglan-South' Army Barracks, which is very likely to be the location of the photo.  The 1st Battalion was at Nasirabad in India.  After the war the Devonport garrison was renamed as Plymouth.  See: http://www.devonportonline.co.uk/historic_devonport/buildings_historic/raglan-gatehouse/raglan-gatehouse.aspx

 

 

The_main_gateway_to_Raglan_Barracks,_Devonport_-_geograph.org.uk_-_4352969.jpg

Raglan ii.png

 

Raglan iii.jpg

A-Raglan-Barracks-Devonport-Valentines-Series.jpg

Edited by FROGSMILE
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi,

Although I cannot confirm the exact date of this superb photo--I am pretty certain that this is the 2nd Bn Royal Irish Regt.

I have identified one officer: Lt.Col. St John Augustus Cox, who was commanding the 2nd Bn in October, 1914.  He is the officer seated to the left of the Brigadier and quite clearly wears the cuff rank of a Lt Col, also the ribbons for the 1911 Coronation medal and QSA.

I have identified him from the publication 'Our Heroes' Supplement to the Irish Life, in which his portrait appears under those MID, this is on page 55 dated 22/1/15.

It would appear that Col Cox survived the war.

I shall see if I can identify any of the other officers.  

Robert

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wish I’d found this at a car boot! 
The 2nd battalion arrived at Devonport 2nd October 1913 which narrows down the date of the photo to the 10 month window before the outbreak of war. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wish I’d found this at a car boot! 
The 2nd battalion arrived at Devonport 2nd October 1913 which narrows down the date of the photo to the 10 month window before the outbreak of war. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Another is Bt Major Edward Martin Panter-Downes, 2nd Bn., who died on 26/8/14 from wounds received the same day.  He is seated second from the left and wears the ribbons for the QSA/KSA.  His rather unusual cuff rank? denotes his new rank of Major--the crown should be more central.

His portrait and details appear in 'Our Heroes' page 44 and also the Bond of Sacrifice Vol 1 page 116/117.

Robert

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm curious now as to who the Brigadier General is.  It seems that the Regimental Colonel was Major-General Charles Frederick Gregorie CB, who was appointed in 1897 and who died in 1918, so he was probably quite elderly.  It might be then that the Brigadier General was a Deputy Colonel (sometimes appointed I think), or perhaps a senior officer of the Devonport Garrison as a whole.  It might be that the full Colonel is then one of his staff officers.  

Gregorie had been a commanding officer in the 18th (Royal Irish) Regiment until he was promoted to full Colonel on 1st July 1881, on the same day as the regiment was renamed the Royal Irish Regiment.

Edited by FROGSMILE
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Could it be Brig-Gen Beauchamp Doran (GOC 8th Inf Bde)? I only ask as the Regimental history says that he visited the battalion on 10th August at Devonport in the lead up to their departure for France. 

Edited by mrfrank
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, mrfrank said:

Could it be Brig-Gen Beauchamp Doran? I only ask as the Regimental history says that he visited the battalion on 10th August at Devonport in the lead up to their departure for France. 

 

I think you've cracked it and that it is indeed him.

 

Maj Gen Beauchamp John Colclough Doran, CB (24 September 1860 – 23 November 1943) was a British Army officer who commanded the 25th Div during WW1. Commissioned in 1880, Doran saw service on the staff and with the Royal Irish Regt through a number of colonial campaigns in the late nineteenth century, culminating in command of a mobile column in the 2nd Boer War, where he was seriously wounded. He then commanded a battalion of his regiment, followed by a brigade in the BEF. His brigade was mobilised in 1914, and he saw service during the first months of the First World War before being dismissed in October. He was later reinstated as commander of a brigade in the New Armies and promoted to the 25th Division before it was sent to France in 1915; he led it in F&F until June 1916, when he was relieved and sent home. From 1916 to 1918 he commanded the Army forces in southern Ireland, and then held an administrative post in France before retiring in 1920.

 

Edited by FROGSMILE
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, mrfrank said:

Could it be Brig-Gen Beauchamp Doran? I only ask as the Regimental history says that he visited the battalion on 10th August at Devonport in the lead up to their departure for France. 

 

Yes, I believe that this is Beauchamp Doran--Snap!!  There is a picture of him via Google.

2 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

I think you've cracked it and that it is indeed him.

 

Major-General Beauchamp John Colclough Doran, CB (24 September 1860 – 23 November 1943) was a British Army officer who commanded the 25th Division during the First World War. Commissioned in 1880, Doran saw service on the staff and with the Royal Irish Regiment through a number of colonial campaigns in the late nineteenth century, culminating in command of a mobile column in the Boer War, where he was seriously wounded. He then commanded a battalion of his regiment, followed by a brigade in the British Expeditionary Force. His brigade was mobilised in 1914, and he saw service during the first months of the First World War before being dismissed in October. He was later reinstated as commander of a brigade in the New Armies, and promoted to the 25th Division before it was sent to France in 1915; he led it on the Western Front until June 1916, when he was relieved and sent home. From 1916 to 1918 he commanded the Army forces in southern Ireland, and then held an administrative post in France before retiring in 1920.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 09/04/2020 at 16:29, Old Owl said:

 

Yes, I believe that this is Beauchamp Doran--Snap!!  There is a picture of him via Google.

 

 

As a rather poignant footnote:  On 20 October, one of Beauchamp Doran's battalions – the 2nd Royal Irish Regiment – was surrounded during the Battle of Le Bassee and effectively destroyed for lack of support;  on 23 October, he was relieved of command of 8th Brigade and sent home.

 

It seems that he was partly responsible for the death of many of the men appearing in subject photo!

 

DORAN, Major-General Beauchamp John Colclough, C.B. (1903), late the Royal Irish Regiment. Entered army, 1880; Captain and Brevet Major, 1887; Major, 1899; Batt. Lieut.-Col., 1900; Batt.-Col., 1905; Major-Gen., 1915; Lt.-Col. Comm. 1st Batt. the Royal Irish Regiment, 1901-8; commanded 8th Infantry Brigade, 1912-15; 25th Division, 1915-16; Southern District, Ireland, 1916-18: No. 5 Area, British Troops in France and Flanders, 1919; retired list, 1920; served Afghan War, 1880; Nile Expedition, 1884-85; Hazara Expedition, 1888; Miranzai Expedition, 1891, as Brigade Major: N.-W. F., India, 1897, as Staff Officer: Tirah Expedition, 1897-98, as D.A.A.G.; South Africa, 1899-1902, on Staff, and subsequently commanding a mobile column of mounted troops, 1901-2 (severely wounded); European War, 1914-19; b. 24th Sept.. 1860; son of late Gen. Sir J. Doran, K.C.B.; m. 1903, Mary, widow of Wm. M'Geough Bond. Res.: Ely House, Wexford. Clubs: Army and Navy, Royal Automobile, London; Kildare Street, Dublin.

Doran.png

Edited by FROGSMILE
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, mrfrank said:

Could it be Brig-Gen Beauchamp Doran? I only ask as the Regimental history says that he visited the battalion on 10th August at Devonport in the lead up to their departure for France. 

 

Presumably we now have an exact date for the photo--10th August, 1914, 4 days later they were in France!!

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Captain above the Brig-Gen’s right shoulder (to the left as we look) resembles Walton Mellor. I have him as an instructor in a couple of pre-war RMC Company photos I have. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Would it be useful to list the officers that departed for France? The Regimental history helpfully lists them. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

As a rather poignant footnote:  On 20 October, one of Beauchamp Doran's battalions – the 2nd Royal Irish Regiment – was surrounded during the Battle of Le Bassee and effectively destroyed for lack of support;  on 23 October, he was relieved of command of 8th Brigade and sent home.

 

It seems that he was partly responsible for the death of many of the men appearing in subject photo!

 

I believe that this was called Le Pilly where the 2nd Bn took a real pasting.

 

I would really love to know which officer in this picture is Lieut David Patrick Laing, because he played a very gallant part in this action and was reported missing on 20/10/14, later believed to have been killed in action on that day.  He was later MID for his actions on that day: L.G. 17/2/15 page 1661.

 

Robert

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, mrfrank said:

Would it be useful to list the officers that departed for France? The Regimental history helpfully lists them. 

 

Indeed it would be very useful as the Army List for October, 1914 (I don't have one for September) may be a little misleading.

 

Robert

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 09/04/2020 at 16:38, mrfrank said:

Would it be useful to list the officers that departed for France? The Regimental history helpfully lists them. 

 

Interestingly, the 'Angels of Mons’ story is associated with the 8th infantry brigade of the 3rd division of the British Army. The brigade consisted of four infantry battalions, about 4,000 men in total. They were the 2nd Royal Scots, the 2nd Royal Irish Regiment, the 4th Middlesex Regiment and the 1st Gordon Highlanders. These were the regiments defending the Mons salient.  The soldier who inspired the story of the Angels of Mons more than any other was Quartermaster Sergeant Thomas Fitzpatrick from Enniscorthy, Co Wexford.

 

The son of a Royal Irish Constabulary (RIC) constable, Fitzpatrick joined the Royal Irish Regiment straight from St Aidan’s Academy in Enniscorthy when he was 18. The regiment recruited from the counties of Wexford, Waterford, Tipperary and Kilkenny and its barracks was in Clonmel.

Within a year of joining the regiment, he was posted to the North East Frontier in India, the start of a remarkable 52-year career in the British Army where he rose to the rank of lieutenant colonel, a considerable achievement given the army’s institutional suspicion of Irish Catholics. He also received 14 foreign decorations.

 

The Battle of Mons happened a week shy of his 35th birthday.

During the first World War he was injured twice. He was gassed and left for dead in 1915. A terse telegram from the British War Office told his mother to come at once to the French hospital in Boulogne. He had not been expected to live.  He survived and went on to become a high-ranking functionary in various parts of the British Empire including chief of police in Cairo. He retired in 1949.

 

Nothing, though, in his long career, ever achieved the same renown as his actions during the Battle of Mons.

As a quartermaster sergeant, Fitzpatrick was not a frontline soldier. His role was to ensure his regiment was suited, booted, fed and watered, but needs must on a battlefield.

 

The Royal Irish Regiment was at the base of the salient created where the Mons Conde canal bends in a semi-circle. The A Company of the 2nd Royal Irish had been overwhelmed and their company commander Fergus (the Earl of) Forbes was badly injured and would die later that day.

 

It had been heavily defended at a terrible cost in lives and now they were threatening the flanks of the BEF. There was a real danger the 1st Corps of the BEF, half its entire force on the continent of Europe, would be surrounded and find its war at an end before it had even begun.

Sensing the danger, Fitzpatrick gathered up 40 men from his regiment who were not then in the frontline and they manned the hastily dug trench at La Bascule crossroads.

 

From there, he and his men had a clear line of sight of the German advance in front and at the side where the German 17th Division was pressing hard on the flanks of the two Scottish regiments, the Gordons and the Scots.

Many accounts of the rearguard stand at La Bascule have been written, but the best is probably Fitzpatrick’s, who published his in The Old Contemptible, a magazine for ex-servicemen in 1955.

 

Shortly after occupying the trenches, Fitzpatrick and two others went, under fire, to recover a British machine gun lying on the road in front of them. The gun was jammed and the machine gunner was dead, but Fitzpatrick recalled being “delighted” by their “trophy”. Each regiment had only two machine guns. Without both, they stood little chance of repulsing the Germans.

 

Again and again the grey-clad German forms approached; again and again they were repulsed.

“Everyone was now in good form and in good spirits,” recalled Fitzpatrick as if they were on a grouse hunt. “We felt we were on top of the world and had repulsed the whole German Army.”

 

But the cost to his little Irish band was considerable. Fifteen had been killed and four were seriously injured and no medical aid was forthcoming. Fitzpatrick was matter-of-fact about it. “I hoped they would die quickly.”

The surviving men were hungry and thirsty. Mostly they craved tobacco. Fitzpatrick and two others went looking for food. They saw two German soldiers looting a shop for sweets and shot them both. There were no angels at Mons that day.

They then went to look for Capt Forbes and stumbled across the bodies of about 50 German soldiers. Fitzpatrick felt no pity. “How elated we were to see the result of our afternoon’s work.”

 

It was now night-time. The Germans had been severely mauled and closed down operation to tend to their dead and injured. As they pondered their next move, Fitzpatrick and his men encountered a group of German medical officers in a large Mercedes who approached their trench and demanded access to the German injured.

Bayonets fixed, a stand-off ensued. The senior German officer told them they would be in Paris in five days. “I hope it keeps fine for you,” an Irish voice piped up.

 

Another German officer observed the Royal Irish badges. “I presume you must all be Ulstermen,” he asked.

Fitzpatrick was amused: “This remark was received by my men with hoots of derision. Lydon said he was from Wexford, others shouted their various counties, Waterford, Cork, Tipperary, Kerry etc and I said jokingly, ‘don’t give information to the enemy’.”

Eventually at 11pm, the men decided to retire for the night and to move towards the British lines. They took their dead and buried them in the trench where they had held out for most of the day. A Belgian civilian led them to safety. On the way, they encountered a young Irish officer, Second Lieutenant John Shine from Waterford, who had been taken in by a Belgian woman and was dying from his wounds in an upstairs room. He would be the first of three Shine brothers to die in the war.

 

Fitzpatrick’s earlier feelings of euphoria gave way to depression as he contemplated the death of another young man. “Was war worth the glory and its adventures, why should men kill one another?” There was no time for reflection.

Of the 50 or so men who had been in the trenches with him that day, only 17 were left.

Eventually they found their way back to their battalion as the whole of the BEF began the retreat from Mons, a 300km foot slog in unbearable heat with the German Army in pursuit.

 

Reflecting on that fateful day in Mons more than 40 years later, Fitzpatrick recalled seeing no “Mons angels”.

“I honestly think that not one of my men had the faintest idea what they were fighting for. In fact, I was not sure myself – which illustrates the unconquerable spirit of the British soldier of that day – the Irish soldier in our case. They were there to fight without thought of clan or creed or how well they responded to the call of duty and the traditions of their gallant regiment.”

 

For his actions, Fitzpatrick received the Distinguished Conduct Medal (DCM) from the British Government, the French Medaille Militaire, their equivalent of the Victoria Cross, and the Russian Order of St George.  

Fitzpatrick was one of the lucky ones. He survived the war and the next one. During the second World War he was chief of police in the Suez Canal area. Latter-day pictures show an old man laughing and joking with the nurses who were looking after him in a Putney nursing home.

He died in 1965 aged 84. According to his grandson Tom Fitzpatrick, his memoirs were appropriated by the Ministry of Defence (MOD) because they contained sensitive information about British activities in the post-war Middle East.

 

He was Quartermaster Sergeant at Mons, 1914 Commissioned in the Field - Lt., appointed Regimental Adjutant, 1915 - wounded and gassed, 1916 Captain and appointed Assistant Provost Marshall, 1918 - Major, 1920 - Lt. Col. Appointed Deputy Provost Marshall 1926 - retired from British Army, 1946 - recalled to British Army as Lt. Col. and appointed Commissioner of Police and Prisons in Eritrea.

 

Thomas Fitzpatrick.jpg

Edited by FROGSMILE
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Lt Col St John Augustus COX

Maj Stratford Edward ST LEGER [2nd in command]

Maj Edward Henry Edward DANIELL DSO [B Coy]

Brevet-Maj Edward Martin PANTER-DOWNES [C Coy]

Capt George Augustus ELLIOT [D Coy]

Capt Walton MELLOR [A Coy]

Capt James Stephens FITZGERALD

Capt Ion Barry GEORGE

Capt Hon Fergus George Arthur FORBES

Lt Frederick Clifford FERGUSON

Lt Michael Charles Cooper HARRISON

Lt Alexander Devereux FRAZER [Scout officer]

Lt Richard Ernest Gilchrist PHILLIPS [Adj]

Lt Patrick Joseph WHITTY [MG officer]

Lt Frederick Hornby Lever RUSHTON [Transport officer]

Lt David Patrick LAING

Lt Archdale Maurice Stratford TANDY [Signalling officer]

Lt Albert Edward Brunker ANDERSON

Lt Eric Cecil GUINESS [from Spec Res]

Lt Conrad Fulke Thomond O'Brien FFRENCH [from Spec Res]

2nd Lt Edward George Dunscombe Masters PHILLIPS [from Spec Res]

2nd Lt Charles Barry GIBBONS 

2nd Lt John Denis SHINE

2nd Lt Alexander Reginald NEWTON-KING

2nd Lt Charles Gordon MAGRATH

Capt Joseph RICHINGS [QM]

Maj Henry William LONG [RAMC attached]

 

Edited by mrfrank
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, mrfrank said:

Would it be useful to list the officers that departed for France? The Regimental history helpfully lists them. 

 

Yes I'm sure that would be helpful, even if we can't ID them all, at least they will then be recorded on this thread along with the photos.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What a cracking pre deployemnt officer photo. If only there were names.

 

However it looks like the forum is rising to the challenge and ticking several off already. This is what's best about the forum. Good job chaps.

 

Derek.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

See officer embarkation roll posted above - As I typed them realised that I believe I have both Lt Tandy and Lt Anderson on Sandhurst photos so will try and post their images on here later so the OP can see if he can match them up. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, mrfrank said:

See officer embarkation roll posted above - As I typed them realised that I believe I have both Lt Tandy and Lt Anderson on Sandhurst photos so will try and post their images on here later so the OP can see if he can match them up. 

 

The list appears to have become detached?

 

David Patrick Laing went through Sandhurst--does he appear on any of your photos?  I think that he was commissioned in 1909 or 1910?

 

Robert

Edited by Old Owl
Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, mrfrank said:

Should be there now......problem with large fingers and small phone is my excuse :-) 

 

I've just noticed that, going by the buttoning of his jacket, the full Colonel staff officer is from the Irish Guards.  

Edited by FROGSMILE
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...