3rd Motor Machine Gun Battery India 1919

[pjwmacro]

Further to the 22nd Battery Motor Machine Guns topic which was started on the GWF nearly 3 years ago, my curiosity has been sparked about the other batteries of the Motor Machine Gun Service / Machine Gun Corps (Motors) which served in India during WW1, and whether they also got caught up in the policing operations in the Punjab, and the Third Afghan War of 1919. I know 3rd Motor Machine Gun Battery, after distinguished service in France, arrived India in January 1918 and was stationed in Ambala. During the Third Afghan War they were sent to Kohat and where there from 25th May to 29th June 1919. So far as I am aware they were not in action.

 

The medal roll for the IGSM with Afghanistan 1919 clasp suggests the following as a battery nominal roll:

 

OC: Capt Neville Rupert FARMER, West Kent Yeomanry

       Lt.(A/Capt.) Keith Alfred KNIGHT

 

191938 Gnr STUBBS Frank

69064 Gnr SEARLE Wallis W

432 L/Cpl and A/Colour Sgt. John Latham RATCLIFFE. Originally 13892 Shropshire Light Infantry

1340 Gnr SILVESTER, Arthur T

2381 Gnr STWEARD, Frederick C

1651 Gnr TAYLOR, James

68711 Gnr TYLER, Albert

79516 Gnr WALKER. Charles

406 Sgt BELL, Hadrian E

2523 Gnr REDDING Alec

191932 Gnr BIRD, John

191940 Gnr CARIAW, Alexander

191935 Gnr MURRANT, Charles

401 A/Bdr MASSEY, Albert Edward

115211 Gnr WYNNE Gwilyn

734 Gnr JACKSON, Thomas

124 A/Cpl SLOGGETT, Eric Richard

292 Sgt BEVAN, Harold

32556 Gnr BRIANCE, Claude H

2653 Gnr BURCHELL John H

1148 Gnr CRILLY, James

1221 Gnr BYRNE, Thomas (india but no GSM)

79484 Gnr CULLEY Richard H

2078 Gnr DAVIES, Alfred W

1243 Gnr DAVIES Frederick G

79457 Gnr DUNCAN John R

1421 Gnr FISH Ernest

410 Cpl FRANKS Sydney

1071 Gnr GIBBONS Frank

2120 Gnr HINCKS Albert E

78 Cpl HOWIESON William

1462 Gnr McDOUGALL, Mungo MM

79481 Gnr MURRAY, William McD

2486 Gnr OXLEY, Charles J

69173 Gnr PEACOCK Harry

2524 Gnr RICHARDS George S

 

ASC attached:

M2/153541 Pte RICHARDS John W

 

I have no idea who the Battery officers were. Can anyone tell me? 

 

I have not yet started delving into MICS and looking for service records, but that is the next step. In the meantime, if anyone is related to any of these men, can share photos or stories then I`d be happy to hear from them!  Also at 34 names, this is probably about 50% of the battery establishment - so who are the missing names and what happened to them?

 

Stay safe and healthy.

Edited 17 October , 2020 by pjwmacro
Tidy up, adding information from further down thread.

[david murdoch]

In contact with Nick Stubbs - grandson of 191938 Gnr Frank Stubbs.ex Royal Warwickshire Reg.

 

Due to action in France 3rd already had a fair turnover of men prior to going to India, so also higher numbered MGC(M) men as well as some of the original MMGS men.

There is a small group of RWR men I believe joined 3rd MMG as a group transfer. 

John Devy Bird 191932

Frank Collins 191933

John Lavender 191934

Charles Arthur Murrant 191935

Charles Frankham 191936

John Smith 191937

Frank Stubbs 191938

Stanton Wyatt 191939

 

Alexander Carlaw 191940 was ex ASC

 

Stubbs,Bird, Murrant and Frankham confirmed 3rd MMG  but I believe all of them as the survivors all discharged on the same day 29/1/1920  - there are some other close numbers on the Motors roll (BWM only) with same discharge date that also need looking at. 

 

191936 Gunner Charles Frankham died India 30/10/1918 and serving with 3rd MMG at the time. He is buried at Ambala. So places his transfer  into MGC(M) to sometime in 1918 prior to October.

 

I also have Gunner 1092 Laurence Lamb Mair died Ambala 1/5/1919 3rd MMG.

Gunner 456 Joseph Spencer Noble gained IGSM with HQ 1st A.M.B, but by his 15 star date of entry I suspect was original 3rd MMG and transferred sideways once in India.

 

A/Cpl 124 is Eric Richard Sloggett.

 

ASC

Pte William H Cameron M2/081500

Pte John W Richards M2/153541

Edited 16 April , 2020 by david murdoch
correction

[david murdoch]

For officers - looks like the same pattern for all the batteries only one or two show up on the GSM officers roll.

For 3rd Battery I have Lt (acting Captain)  Keith Alfred Knight

Edited 8 April , 2020 by david murdoch

[pjwmacro]

4 hours ago, david murdoch said:

In contact with Nick Stubbs - grandson of 191938 Gnr Frank Stubbs.ex Royal Warwickshire Reg.

 

Thanks David - coming up trumps as always! I have seen some of your comms with Nick Stubbs on the forum - and comments on other threads seeking information about individuals. Thought - I`d try and pull it into one thread as er the 22 Bty one.  Now I need to get these names into a Bty spreadsheet.  Regards.

[david murdoch]

CO of 3rd Battery was Captain Nevill Rupert Farmer. He was not the original co but shows up signing the war diaries prior to them ending in  Marseilles 31/10/1917.

He then crops up getting married to Ethel Bell Davis in Bombay  Mumbai 16/11/1918 and showing as Captain, 3rd MMG Battery.

He was born 1891 in Geelong Victoria Australia and baptised the following year in Bexley Kent. On 1911 Census was in Bexley Kent living with his mother (father appears to have stayed in Australia).

His wife appears to have applied for his medals on his behalf in 1924,possibly as he was overseas. I have him living at 163 Picardy Road, Belvedere, Kent in 1930 . 

He did not qualify for an IGSM/clasp.

[david murdoch]

There are several older threads regarding 3rd Battery personnel.

 

One on  Pte John Wesley Richards M2/153541 ASC. He was another one who left for Canada and claimed his war gratuity through the Imperial War Service Gratuities. In his papers shows enlistment date of 3/1/1916 and discharge date 8/1/1920, but the place of discharge is Winchester England, so must have left India a month or more before.

In that thread one of the posters noted he was in possession of the diary of Gunner 2524 George S Richards. 

 

 

[david murdoch]

Known A.S.C men (GSM roll) attached to 3rd MMG

Pte William H Cameron M2/081500

Pte John Wesley Richards M2/153541

Pte  Robert Frank Price M2/021875

Pte Charles Howard Nunney M2/055145

Pte G W Mathews M2/154208

Pte Harry Jaycock M2/032059     Geoffrey Churcher has his medals.

A/Cpl Harry Bradford M2/021881

No service records for any of them but as mentioned Richard has Canadian War Gratuity papers. Most of them have 1915 Stars. 

[david murdoch]

Casualty. Gunner 757  Albert Alfred Lloyd died 23/6/1919. On the Karachi Memorial, but is actually  buried at Lahore Cantonment North Cemetery. He is the only MGC(M) man listed in Pakistan by CWGC.

Photo of his grave. Notes he died of heatstroke and in mid 1919 - Motor Machine Gun Service! The man in the picture is noted as being a friend and comrade Walter Emery. I have not yet identified him, but do not see him as having been MMGS.There are a couple possible for ASC. This photo is post war as the man is wearing BWM/VM and also he is wearing tartan trews indicating a Scottish unit. On family tree he is noted as friend and neighbour.  Albert was born April 1894 in Small Heath Birmingham. The oldest of seven siblings, his younger brother Harold George was born in 1900 and served in the RNVR from 1917 to 1919 then in 1920s with the RAF in India with 20 Squadron in Peshawar.

 

[pjwmacro]

11 hours ago, david murdoch said:

CO of 3rd Battery was Captain Nevill Rupert Farmer. . 

He did not qualify for an IGSM/clasp

 

Curious that the battery was deployed to Kohat, but that the CO didn't get the AFG/NWF 1919 clasp. Although, if he didn't deploy, that might explain the lack of a war diary for 3 MMG Bty for the Third Afghan War. That said, I need to check in TNA (when next I visit, which might be some time!) as the Official History has 3 MMG as moving to Kohat as part of 46th Mobile Brigade. Equally, I suppose it could be possible that he was entitled the clasp but never claimed it? Especially if his wife claimed his other medals?

 

[pjwmacro]

7 hours ago, david murdoch said:

Casualty. Gunner 757  Albert Alfred Lloyd died 23/6/1919. On the Karachi Memorial, but is actually  buried at Lahore Cantonment North Cemetery.

 

Died just before the Battery was released from Kohat. Given Lahore is enroute from Kohat to Ambala, I wonder if he became ill on deployment and was left in Lahore, died subsequently, or whether he reached Kohat but then became ill, and was sent back? Of course could be neither - maybe he was stationed at Lahore as part of the deployment?

 

Also interesting in the officer who buried him - Lt J S Fowler (?) - potentially a battery officer? (Noting that both the other 2 casualties on the page are buried by the Acting Chaplain)

[david murdoch]

On 09/04/2020 at 06:10, pjwmacro said:

 

Died just before the Battery was released from Kohat. Given Lahore is enroute from Kohat to Ambala, I wonder if he became ill on deployment and was left in Lahore, died subsequently, or whether he reached Kohat but then became ill, and was sent back? Of course could be neither - maybe he was stationed at Lahore as part of the deployment?

 

Also interesting in the officer who buried him - Lt J S Fowler (?) - potentially a battery officer? (Noting that both the other 2 casualties on the page are buried by the Acting Chaplain)

Looking at the others on the same page they also died of heat stroke. I'm thinking he probably took ill while at Lahore due to very hot weather, as the onset is pretty quick. Died and was buried the following day. Average for Lahore in June is between 28 and 39 degrees. Nothing definite on Lt Fowler, but not MGC(M). The headstone must have been erected some time after, but I'd say near certainty by the battery - possibly paid for by battery funds or his mates in the battery, by the fact they had the MMG badge and "Motor Machine Gun Service"  engraved on it as late as mid 1919. On the official graves report he's MGC (Motors). 

 

Edited 10 April , 2020 by david murdoch

[david murdoch]

Gunner 1092 Laurence Lamb Mair.  Died at Stationary Hospital Ambala  1/5/1919. He was born 3rd March 1886 in Anstruther, Fife, Scotland. On the 1911 Census he appears living in London as a boarder and his occupation being stockboker's clerk. On the 1913 electoral roll he was renting at the same address 8 Batley Road, but by 1915 he had moved back to Scotland and was renting at 323 Allison St on the south side of Glasgow. He appears to have enlisted directly into the MMGS between 4th and 8th of May 1915  then gone to France 19/10/1915 and allocated to 3rd MMG Battery. Serving with the Battery and going to India with them.

He died aged 33 of some medical ailment but not quite clear on his service return. He is buried in Ambala Cantonment Cemetery and also listed on the Kirkee Memorial.

Edited 11 April , 2020 by david murdoch

[pjwmacro]

22 hours ago, david murdoch said:

I'm thinking he probably took ill while at Lahore due to very hot weather, as the onset is pretty quick. Died and was buried the following day. Average for Lahore in June is between 28 and 39 degrees.

Makes sense - so Lloyd died without ever reaching Kohat - hence no IGSM. I wonder if the battery left a QM type party in Lahore as a staging post for resupply?

[pjwmacro]

23 hours ago, david murdoch said:

inite on Lt Fowler, but not MGC(M)

 

It was shipping record which gave me 22 Bty's officers. Must try that for 3rd - although that may be more difficult as they shipped from Marsaille. And the Indian Army list also helped.

[david murdoch]

Looking at old GWF threads regarding 3rd MMG Battery. I am looking at additional information but will add to this thread with the link to the original thread to try and tie some of these together. There were several threads  by Canadian Jane pertaining to her grandfather Pte John Wesley Richards M2/153541 ASC but unfortunately she has not visited since 2015. 

 

Relating to this post I think I have now identified the family in the photo/Christmas card given to her grandfather.

The "Davys" Ambala Xmas 1919. I believe the man to be Stephen Irvine Davy b.Woolwich 27/3/1880 d. Ealing 8/9/1962 his wife Constance Maria (Eakins) b. 7/3/1884 Jubbelpore, India d. 29/9/1954 Ealing. Their daughter Dorothy Constance Davy b.10/2/1910 Nowgong, India d. 5/2/1993 Ealing.so making her age 9 in this photo. 

Stephen Davy was a career military man and Staff Sgt in the Royal Field Artillery  - He has an armed forces marriage record from 1907  - married to Constance in Nowgong in 1907. Records show Dorothy was born and baptised in Nowgong and married 11/10/1930 in Rawalpindi to a Lt. Henry Arnot Ferguson R.A.M.C. Though in civilian clothes Stephen Davy has an MIC showing award of British War Medal (only) and an MSM. He appears later in the 1932 Army List as a Deputy Commissiary (with Rank of Captain) In Indian Army. The 1939 roll and his wife's probate notes he was retired Major Indian Army. He has a number of Masonic records over the years  showing he was a Lodge member in Kasauli1911 Dagshai 1911 and 1916 then Umballa (Ambala) November 1918. So possibly a masonic connection to Pte Richards. Later photo of Dorothy date unknown  - definitely looks like her mother.

[pjwmacro]

1 hour ago, david murdoch said:

The "Davys" Ambala Xmas 1919

 

Thanks David. Presumably the Davys were sending such cards to the Battery as they left - because the majority would have shipped out of India by that stage.

[david murdoch]

Richards enlistment date was 3/1/1916  and has a discharge date of 8th January 1920 (at Winchester in the UK) so he likely left India a month before. He would probably go to Gondal and then to the transit camp at Deolali. His gratuities record states he received part payment there from paymaster of 3rd MMG. They were probably then stuck there waiting on transit back to UK, but probably left Ambala in November 1919.

[pjwmacro]

32556 Claude Henry Briance has the MM (awarded 1916). He also has a surviving service record as 335 Briance, having enlisted in 9Bn Essex Regt in Sep 1914, before transferring to 3 Bty MMGS in early1915. He was wounded (GSW to face) 1/3/1916, but returned to 3 Bty and served with them in India. b Dec 1896, d 12 Oct 1948.

[pjwmacro]

On 08/04/2020 at 18:02, david murdoch said:

John Lavender 19134

 

Is the service number correct? Do you mean 191934?  Regards, Paul

[david murdoch]

1 hour ago, pjwmacro said:

 

Is the service number correct? Do you mean 191934?  Regards, Paul

Yes  - just a typo. I'll correct it in the original post.

[david murdoch]

Checking all CWGC records for MGC(M) in India, and noting units. There are a couple listed wrongly as Squadron or Coy. instead of Battery and two without any unit noted.

Of these I found burial record for Sgt. George Frederick Lakin 79719 Died and buried at Mhow 28/10/1918 of Spanish flu. He is noted on this record as being 3rd MMG Battery.

The other one Sgt. John McDonald (MacDonald) 79900 Died 13/11/1918 and buried at Mhow. I don't see a burial record for him though by the other dates he should be on the same page on the burials record. It's most likely he was also 3rd MMG and probably also died of Spanish Flu. Both are also listed on the Kirkee Memorial. Neither of these men are showing a previous service number, both are on the Motors roll with BWM and VM, but no 15 Stars.

https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/1481502/lakin,-george-frederick/

https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/1481584/mcdonald,-/

[pjwmacro]

12 hours ago, david murdoch said:

Of these I found burial record for Sgt. George Frederick Lakin 79719 Died and buried at Mhow 28/10/1918 of Spanish flu. He is noted on this record as being 3rd MMG Battery.

 

Great stuff, David. But why would they be buried at Mhow, when it's about 1000km from the Battery station at Ambala?

[david murdoch]

14 minutes ago, pjwmacro said:

 

Great stuff, David. But why would they be buried at Mhow, when it's about 1000km from the Battery station at Ambala?

Not sure  - they could have been heading from Bombay to Ambala (Mhow being on the rail route) at the time and got caught by the epidemic. There is a whole page of flu victims on the burial record. I need to check on when they would have got these MGC numbers.

Edited 18 April , 2020 by david murdoch

[pjwmacro]

3 minutes ago, david murdoch said:

Not sure  - they could have been heading from Bombay to Ambala at the time and got caught by the epidemic. There is a whole page of flu victims on the burial record.

That makes sense, and if the record shows Lakin as 3rd Bty then I`d say that was conclusive. But that doesn't then mean McDonald was 3rd Bty - he could as easily have been travelling from Bombay to join 14 in Jubalpore, 15 in Peshwar, 19 in Quetta or 22 in Rawalpindi?

[david murdoch]

49 minutes ago, pjwmacro said:

That makes sense, and if the record shows Lakin as 3rd Bty then I`d say that was conclusive. But that doesn't then mean McDonald was 3rd Bty - he could as easily have been travelling from Bombay to join 14 in Jubalpore, 15 in Peshwar, 19 in Quetta or 22 in Rawalpindi?

Very true - I don't have anything conclusive on him - and strange he was buried there but not on the same page of the burial record as they are in calendar order. CWGC does not have him as a reburial from elsewhere nearby.Hard name to track down also only by his soldier's effects his father's name was also John. He does not appear on the Scottish National War Memorial.They actually have Lakin noted as 3rd Coy MGC - but this must be an error as 3rd Coy was not there and was by then part of 1st Btn MGC on the Western front. In any case both are Motors numbers. Given their same series service numbers they may have been part of a draft of replacements heading to various postings. 79566 was a late addition to 22nd. 

Edited 18 April , 2020 by david murdoch