Dormans French National Cemetery: Case #1 - Unknown Aviators B15 and B16

[laughton]

This is a spin-off of this topic:

Jonchery-sur-Vesle British Cemetery: Case #3 - Lieutenant Aviator at Courthiézy

 

I have replaced the information in that topic that is related to the Dormans French National Cemetery and placed it here, leaving a link to this topic at the old post.

 

Luc reported that there were three (3) other unknown airmen in the nearby French National Cemetery at Dormans who needed to be investigated (see this post). That was an important issue related to the case at Jonchery-sur-Vesle, given the close proximity of Dormans to Courthiézy. The CWGC would most certainly question the Courthiézy airman case if there were other candidates from the same location at the same time.

 

These are details of the three unknown airmen:

 

B4	Dormans 1/20000 260.1 x 206.1 (that is south of Troissy and east of Vassy) a) Turnberry Ayrchire & Adjudent Aviateur b) Officers Uniform RAF & Black Tie. Maker's name: McBirney & Milne, 433 Strand W.C., 83 Coventry St. W.
B15	Dormans 1/20000 209.2 x 267.3 Unknown English Aviateur 18/6/18 No rank badge found but an Officer
B16	Dormans 1/20000 209.0 x 267.3 Unknown British Aviateur Officer Rank Badge - ring on sleeve Regimental buttons of Royal Highlanders

 

In the case of the man in B4:

• that seems to be related to a location in Scotland Turnbury & Ayrshire in the Firth of Clyde
• did he come from there or is that where the uniform was made?
• that case is not included as part of this new topic at this time

In the case of the man in B15:

• three (3) missing for that date but not anywhere near this area
• Nicholson & Leight at Neuville-St.Vaast 51b.A.3 and Mulroy at Aveluy Wood 57d.W.14
• see entry for B16, so my guess would be that this is Captain Roy Edward Dubber, the Canadian
• that means the date is 18/7/18 Toronto Star 23 July 1918

For the last man in B16:

• with the secondary regiment of the Royal Highlanders he is one of these 8 men on CWGC

  • that will need to be checked in detail to make sure there were not others that were not recorded

• Dickie DH9 D5684 Observer 107th Sqn. 18 July 1918
  • Captain (Pilot) was R. E. Dubber, a Canadian - also missing, possibly the man in B15
• Skinner Sopwith F1 Camel B7357 Pilot 46th Sqn. 3 May 1918 - combat over DON
  • okay found that, way up north in Lille sector, area of 36.G.25

 

 

For Graves B15 & B16 the Trench Map Coordinates were nearly identical DORMANS 209 x 267:

 

Here are the maps showing the crash site southwest of Reims and northeast of Dormans. That was good for the Jonchery case as that location could not be confused with a site at Courthiézy.

 

 

 

I will continue with the details on the possible candidates shortly.

Edited 8 April , 2020 by laughton

[laughton]

The related documents:

 

The Sky Their Battlefield II:   There is little detail in Trevor's book for Dubber (Canadian Pilot) and Dickie (British Observer), other than they left at 6:33 am on a bombing operation. The introduction for the activity on the 18th refers to the area west of Reims. In addition we can infer (correctly I hope!) that the three (3) planes of the 107th Squadron that left at 6:33 am, all left from Courmont / Fresnes-en-Tardenois. Google Earth shows me that aerodrom would be approximately 14 km west-northwest of the location where the remains were found (yellow line below). That detail is in the record of Mollet & Rawlings in C6252.

 

COG-BR 1996165

GRRF 2254167

 

Both are listed as "Airman of the Great War - Unknown Officer".

HD -SCHD 2093933 - last entry

HD-SCHD 2093935 - first entry

 

Dickie

Dubber

 

I should have noted that these are the men that had an affiliation with the Black Watch (Royal Highlanders).

 

CWGC Database Candidates: McCASH Lieutenant JOHN WATSON 23 November 1917 Age 24 ARRAS FLYING SERVICES MEMORIAL VIEW RECORD Royal Flying Corps 3rd Sqdn. United Kingdom WILSON Second Lieutenant JOHN COOPER 17 October 1916 Age 28 ARRAS FLYING SERVICES MEMORIAL VIEW RECORD Royal Flying Corps 23rd Sqdn. United Kingdom DICKIE Lieutenant CECIL BARRON 18 July 1918 Age 20 ARRAS FLYING SERVICES MEMORIAL VIEW RECORD Royal Air Force 107th Sqdn. United Kingdom MEARNS Captain ANGUS HUGHES 24 June 1917 Age 22 ARRAS FLYING SERVICES MEMORIAL VIEW RECORD Royal Flying Corps 57th Sqdn. United Kingdom SKINNER Second Lieutenant ROBERT LEONARD GRAHAME 03 May 1918 Age 20 ARRAS FLYING SERVICES MEMORIAL VIEW RECORD Royal Air Force 46th Sqdn. United Kingdom SMITH Second Lieutenant JAMES BONNEY 15 August 1917 ARRAS FLYING SERVICES MEMORIAL VIEW RECORD Royal Flying Corps 43rd Sqdn. United Kingdom RAY Second Lieutenant PHILIP OLIPHANT 13 April 1917 Age 23 ARRAS FLYING SERVICES MEMORIAL VIEW RECORD Royal Flying Corps 53rd Sqdn. United Kingdom ROBERTSON Second Lieutenant ARCHIBALD GARDEN 08 June 1917 Age 19 ARRAS FLYING SERVICES MEMORIAL VIEW RECORD Royal Flying Corps 66th Sqdn. United Kingdom

 

Edited 20 April , 2020 by laughton
added HD-SCHD image; added note in red

[laughton]

Taking a look at the Aviator in B15,we know the date is incorrect, as only three (3) aviators are missing that day and none from squadrons that are in the Aisne-Marne sector:

• Trevor's (fetubi) list:
  • May: 52
  • June: 2, 43, 73, 80, 102, 2AFC,7, 32, 49
  • July: 27, 32, 43, 49, 54, 73, 80, 82, 98, 107

UPDATE: I only just noticed that someone did recognize that error in the date as it is stroked out on the GRRF. This is the same GRRF document that shows the change from Melbourne (moved to X.14) and Aitken (moved to X.20) to Auster (now B.18) and Phipson (now B.19). They are the two that were associated with the plane marked "Highbury Aircraft Coy." on COG-BR 1996169.

 

CWGC LINK

 

If we were to take that as the burial date and include those from the 16th to 18th the list expands to eight (8), but again, none of those are in the sector:

 

CWGC LINK

 

The NKG men were in these squadrons: 3 (2), 4, 41, 56 (2), 103 (2)

 

With the corrected date of 18 July 1918, to match the burial in B16 at the same location, we have only three (3) candidates (CWGC LINK). we know that  Lieutenant Dickie is in grave B16 so it would be logical that Captain Dubber is in B15, both of 107th Squadron. The "third man" is Lieutenant Anderson of 32nd Squadron, which is on our July Squadron list as well.

 

Anderson is reported lost more than 17 miles west of where the remains of B15 and B16 were recovered. Hard to make a case that it might be Anderson and not Dubber!

Edited 27 April , 2020 by laughton
red update

[laughton]

The two we are looking at in this case are:

• https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/1540678/dubber,-roy-edward/
• https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/747303/dickie,-cecil-barron/

We have now collected most of the documents and those, along with the records noted above, are now in a Shared MediaFire folder here:

• https://www.mediafire.com/#tlje982c8grug

Because they are 107th Squadron, we are also comparing them to what happened to these two men, who are buried in Vailly British Cemetery:

• https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/578526/mollet,-frederick-norman/
• https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/578559/rawlings,-benjamin/

 

[laughton]

I had left this case for the week to check and make sure that there were no other candidates for the airman in Dormans B.16. In particular I was concerned about the other airman in Dormans B. 4 (this separate topic), in the event that might be the grave of Captain Dubber. With the limited list of missing airmen and the precise location of the remains one would think we could figure out who was in grave B.4 but there is no clear match.

 

The closest remains to the occupant of B.4 are those of two of the known airmen, Auster B.18 and Phipson B.19.

[laughton]

The report on this case has now been filed with the CWGC:

 

Captain Dubber Lieutenant Dickie Dormans French National Cemetery B.15 & B.16