Naval Chaplains - Some questions

[alf mcm]

In the January 1919 Navy List there are 47 Chaplains mentioned, apart from those who had retired. https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/2406/40565_625988_2616-01029?pid=8698483&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc%3DbmY38478%26_phstart%3DsuccessSource%26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26indiv%3D1%26dbid%3D2406%26gsfn%3DHENRY%26gsln%3DBACKWELL%26gsfn_x%3D1%26gsln_x%3D1%26cp%3D11%26new%3D1%26rank%3D1%26uidh%3D9y4%26redir%3Dfalse%26gss%3Dangs-d%26pcat%3D39%26fh%3D43%26h%3D8698483%26recoff%3D%26ml_rpos%3D44%26queryId%3D6f62bf985dceb763d7fb36737ae1bda7&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&queryId=6f62bf985dceb763d7fb36737ae1bda7&usePUB=true&_phsrc=bmY38478&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true#?imageId=40565_625988_2616-01029

27 were described as ‘Chaplain’

14 were described as ‘Chaplain’ and ‘Naval Instructor’

5 were described as ‘Chaplain’ and ‘Instructor Commander’

1 was described as ‘Chaplain’ and ‘Instructor Lieutenant-Commander’

 With regard to those marked ‘Instructor’;-

Q1.  Who did they instruct?; Officers, Midshipmen, Ratings?

Q2. What did they teach?

Dates are shown for appointment to the various titles of Instructor, with the last being 22^nd January 1904 {for Herbert Harrison Palmer, Instructor Lieutenant-Commander.

 

  Some of the Chaplains {including some who were instructors} have the additional comment under their name, for example ‘{Holds G.H. Living of Simonburn [other place names also mentioned]}’.

Q3. Does G.H. stand for Greenwich Hospital?

Q4. Would the Living be in lieu of a naval pension?

 

Regards,

Alf McM

 

[michaeldr]

5 hours ago, alf mcm said:

Some of the Chaplains {including some who were instructors} have the additional comment under their name, for example ‘{Holds G.H. Living of Simonburn [other place names also mentioned]}’.

Q3. Does G.H. stand for Greenwich Hospital?

 

Yes

See https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/NBL/Simonburn where you will find:-

The manorial rights are vested in the Commissioners of Greenwich Hospital, who are also the patrons of the different livings which have been formed out of the old parish. None but navy chaplains of ten years' service are eligible as rectors of the new parishes, and they are not allowed to hold any other preferment, though they are authorised to receive half pay, and the Commissioners of Greenwich Hospital are empowered to redeem the land-tax chargeable on the rectories."

[From History, Topography, and Directory of Northumberland, Whellan, 1855].

 

edit I to add:

Q4. Would the Living be in lieu of a naval pension?

they are authorised to receive half pay

At least in 1855, the answer to Q4 would appear to 'no'

 

edit II to add:

The original parish of Simonburn, had once included lands belonging to the Earls of Derwentwater. When James Radcliffe of Dilston, 3rd Earl of Derwentwater, was executed for his part in the 1715 Jacobite rebellion, his estates were confiscated by the state. On the death of the 4th Earl, in 1731, the estates were all passed on to Greenwich Hospital, as a means of funding their charity. The legacy of this involvement was that Greenwich Hospital retained the right to appoint the clergymen of Simonburn Parish.

[from http://www.humshaughparish.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/The-Story-of-the-Evans-Trust.pdf]

 

Edited 8 April , 2020 by michaeldr

[horatio2]

Chaplains and Naval Instructors were closely involved since the mid-19th Century. Dual appointments were common. Some light reading:-

http://freepages.rootsweb.com/~pbtyc/genealogy/Navy_List_1879/Chap_Instr.html  (dated 1875)

http://freepages.rootsweb.com/~pbtyc/genealogy/KR&AI/Chaplain.html    (dated 1913)

 

[RNCVR]

Q1.  Who did they instruct?; Officers, Midshipmen, Ratings?

 

Q2. What did they teach?

 

Naval Instructors were Commissioned Officers in the RN. Usually they possessed an university degree such as a BA or MA. 

Naval Schoolmasters were ratings (Chief Petty Officer rank) & could advance to Head Schoolmasters which was a Warrant Officer rank.

 

Normally Naval Instructors taught  Naval Cadets & Midshipmen at the RN Colleges of Osborne & Dartmouth, & they were also carried on board larger ships (ie: Battleships & heavy Cruisers) to instruct Midshipmen as they completed their sea courses to qualify for promotion to Acting Sub Lieutenant.  They also assisted ratings qualifying educationally for advancement to Petty Officer. 

Naval instructors usually taught academic subjects & advanced naval subject such as Navigation & Pilotage to the Cadets & Mids.

The naval subjects such as seamanship,small boatwork, & gunnery\torpedo would have been taught by Petty Officers.

 

Naval Schoolmasters taught ratings at shore (depot) bases & (during Victorian times) were employed teaching on board ships.   Naval Schoolmasters also taught seaman ratings educational courses for advancement, subjects like english, mathematics, geography, the  academic subjects they had to qualify in for advancement in rank. 

 

Hope this assists you,

 

Thanks, Bryan

[RNCVR]

In the July 1914 Naval List there are 54 Naval instructors listed in order of Seniority.  All of them, save one, have University degrees - BA, MA, B.Sc, BD, & one has an Engineering degree - A.M.I.M.E.

Seniority dates range form the most senior at 22 Apl 1887 to 15 June 1903.

 

There are many Chaplains listed, several qualified as Naval Instructors, their seniority dating from 2 Mar 1888 to 22 Jan 1904. 

Many of the Chaplains have MA degrees. 

 

Naval instructors in that 1WW time frame to could advance to equivalent of Executive Commander, & later Executive Captain.  I think their rank designation was changed after 1918 (when the Civil branch ceased to exist) to Instructor Lieut, instructor Lieut Commander, Instructor Commander, Instructor Captain.  They wore light blue distinguishing cloth between their gold sleeve lace bands.

 

There are 33 Head Schoolmasters & 4 Chief Schoolmasters in the July 1914 Navy list. None of these Warrant Officers have University degrees. They would have been all long service ratings.

 

Thanks, Bryan

 

 

Edited 8 April , 2020 by RNCVR

[RNCVR]

The medal pair of Head Schoolmaster Walter John Quick.  He was Head Schoolmaster at HMS Excellent for 10 years at the turn of the Century (prior to 1WW).  He & his staff of Schoolmasters would have taught all manner of educational subjects to seaman ratings qualifying as Gunnery ratings & going for higher educational certificates.

 

Thanks, Bryan

[alf mcm]

1 hour ago, michaeldr said:

 

Yes

See https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/NBL/Simonburn where you will find:-

The manorial rights are vested in the Commissioners of Greenwich Hospital, who are also the patrons of the different livings which have been formed out of the old parish. None but navy chaplains of ten years' service are eligible as rectors of the new parishes, and they are not allowed to hold any other preferment, though they are authorised to receive half pay, and the Commissioners of Greenwich Hospital are empowered to redeem the land-tax chargeable on the rectories."

[From History, Topography, and Directory of Northumberland, Whellan, 1855].

 

edit I to add:

Q4. Would the Living be in lieu of a naval pension?

they are authorised to receive half pay

At least in 1855, the answer to Q4 would appear to 'no'

 

edit II to add:

The original parish of Simonburn, had once included lands belonging to the Earls of Derwentwater. When James Radcliffe of Dilston, 3rd Earl of Derwentwater, was executed for his part in the 1715 Jacobite rebellion, his estates were confiscated by the state. On the death of the 4th Earl, in 1731, the estates were all passed on to Greenwich Hospital, as a means of funding their charity. The legacy of this involvement was that Greenwich Hospital retained the right to appoint the clergymen of Simonburn Parish.

[from http://www.humshaughparish.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/The-Story-of-the-Evans-Trust.pdf]

 

 

Thanks Michael,

  It's very interesting. Any Chaplain who had a Living and a Naval Pension would probably be quite comfortably off.

 

Regards,

 

Alf McM

 

[michaeldr]

Just now, alf mcm said:

Any Chaplain who had a Living and a Naval Pension would probably be quite comfortably off.

 

I rather fancy that he would need that RN pension.

Simonburn is a particularly pretty part of the North Tyne Valley, but it is a sparcely populated farming area and I am inclined to think that the parson might have had a hard time, apart that is from the odd piece of game which someone might leave for him.

[alf mcm]

32 minutes ago, horatio2 said:

Chaplains and Naval Instructors were closely involved since the mid-19th Century. Dual appointments were common. Some light reading:-

http://freepages.rootsweb.com/~pbtyc/genealogy/Navy_List_1879/Chap_Instr.html  (dated 1875)

http://freepages.rootsweb.com/~pbtyc/genealogy/KR&AI/Chaplain.html    (dated 1913)

 

 

Thanks Horatio,

  The attachments make very interesting reading. I hadn't realised that Chaplains had a Royal Marine servant.

 

Regards,

 

Alf McM

 

[alf mcm]

1 minute ago, michaeldr said:

 

I rather fancy that he would need that RN pension.

Simonburn is a particularly pretty part of the North Tyne Valley, but it is a sparcely populated farming area and I am inclined to think that the parson might have had a hard time, apart that is from the odd piece of game which someone might leave for him.

 

Thanks again Michael,

  The Chaplains appear to have had these Livings whilst still serving as Naval Chaplains, and in some cases Instructors. It makes you wonder if they ever actually visited their Livings.

 

Regards,

 

Alf McM

39 minutes ago, RNCVR said:

Q1.  Who did they instruct?; Officers, Midshipmen, Ratings?

 

Q2. What did they teach?

 

Naval Instructors were Commissioned Officers in the RN. Usually they possessed an university degree such as a BA or MA. 

Naval Schoolmasters were ratings (Chief Petty Officer rank) & could advance to Head Schoolmasters which was a Warrant Officer rank.

 

Normally Naval Instructors taught  Naval Cadets & Midshipmen at the RN Colleges of Osborne & Dartmouth, & they were also carried on board larger ships (ie: Battleships & heavy Cruisers) to instruct Midshipmen as they completed their sea courses to qualify for promotion to Acting Sub Lieutenant.  They also assisted ratings qualifying educationally for advancement to Petty Officer. 

Naval instructors usually taught academic subjects & advanced naval subject such as Navigation & Pilotage to the Cadets & Mids.

The naval subjects such as seamanship,small boatwork, & gunnery\torpedo would have been taught by Petty Officers.

 

Naval Schoolmasters taught ratings at shore (depot) bases & (during Victorian times) were employed teaching on board ships.   Naval Schoolmasters also taught seaman ratings educational courses for advancement, subjects like english, mathematics, geography, the  academic subjects they had to qualify in for advancement in rank. 

 

Hope this assists you,

 

Thanks, Bryan

 

Thanks Bryan,

  This and your other posts are most interesting. I now know a lot more than I did when I got up this morning!

 

Regards,

 

Alf McM

[RNCVR]

Guess thats the whole idea Mac!  Pleased to have assisted you. & thanks for your kind comments, much appreciated!

 

I collected medals to Naval Schoolmasters for many years & still have several of them, all Victorian period tho.

 

Incidentally Naval Schoolmasters were among the highest paid of RN ratings, on a par with Chief ERA's & EA's, these being skilled tradesmen ratings.

 

Thanks, Bryan

[michaeldr]

28 minutes ago, alf mcm said:

The Chaplains appear to have had these Livings whilst still serving as Naval Chaplains, and in some cases Instructors.

It makes you wonder if they ever actually visited their Livings

 

An interesting thought; pity then the poor curate

[RNCVR]

Alf, thought you might like to know the rates of Pay for Naval Instructors & Chaplains as of July 1914 -

 

Under 5 yrs service - 219\0\0  per annum.

rising incrementally until 24 yrs service  - a max of 401\10\0

 

However a NI & Chaplain while acting in the double capacity is to receive half of his pay as an NI, in addition to his pay as a Chaplain.

He was also entitled to an annual allowance, commencing at 18\5\0 under 5 yrs in the double capacity, rising to a max of 109\10\0 after 17 yrs service.

He was also permitted an allowance of 5\0\0 (per year) for each Midshipman or Acting Sub Lieut he was instructing.

 

So Naval instructors & Chaplains did quite well in the RN scheme of things!

 

Best....Bryan

[rolt968]

More a question than a thought.

 

Were the Instructor Officers at Haslar responsible for teaching what was required to be a naval officer? I have to say I don't know what that is.

However those with good eyesight will notice medical officers among those in the passing out parades at Dartmouth in recent years.

 

Incidentally, it's interesting to notice what I think are commissioned wardmasters (Is that what they were called then?) in two of the pictures.

Edited 8 April , 2020 by rolt968

[RNCVR]

In the 1914-18 period they were Head Wardmasters.  7 of them in the July 1914 NL, seniority from 27 Oct 1902 to 5 May 1911.

 

They would have been Warranted from Sick Berth Attendants.

[RNCVR]

 

More a question than a thought.

Were the Instructor Officers at Haslar responsible for teaching what was required to be a naval officer? I have to say I don't know what that is.

 

I am not knowledgable on Halsar Hospital & Medical Officers, but I would certainly think that Medical Officers would have to have some Naval knowledge to serve in the RN.  They certainly would have rec'd their academic training whilst qualifying for their medical degrees prior to entering the RN.  I cannot say if Instructor Officers served at Haslar or other Naval hospitals but it is possible they did, however I did check the July 1914 Navy List & dont see any Instructor Officers borne of strength there, or at the other Naval hospitals listed.

 

Thanks, Bryan

 

 

Edited 8 April , 2020 by RNCVR

[alf mcm]

5 hours ago, rolt968 said:

More a question than a thought.

 

Were the Instructor Officers at Haslar responsible for teaching what was required to be a naval officer? I have to say I don't know what that is.

However those with good eyesight will notice medical officers among those in the passing out parades at Dartmouth in recent years.

 

Incidentally, it's interesting to notice what I think are commissioned wardmasters (Is that what they were called then?) in two of the pictures.

 

Rolf,

  Commissioned Wardmaster G.H.T. Wilsmore appears at the left of the back row in the August 1917 photo {he is recorded as Commissioned Wardmaster in Simon Eyre's book}.

  He is to the left of the middle row in the July 1918 photo, and was officially replaced by Commissioned Wardmaster Thomas Chappell on 24/02/20 [although he didn't actually join until 21/05/20}. [Source ADM/104/96].

 

Regards,

 

Alf McM

[seaJane]

9 hours ago, rolt968 said:

However those with good eyesight will notice medical officers among those in the passing out parades at Dartmouth in recent years.

Yes - the New Entry Medical Officers (I get to meet them all, and they make me very happy about the future of the RN Medical Service) now undergo the same officer training as was traditional for executive officers, as of a date which I can't recall. But if you are interested I can try to find some relevant articles.

 

8 hours ago, RNCVR said:

Medical Officers would have to have some Naval knowledge to serve in the RN

The fact that they didn't was something of a running joke up until the Medical Branch changed from Civil to Executive in November 1918, and perhaps beyond. Several of the surgeon probationers report on the teasing they got in the wardroom about whether they would be seasick or not (bearing in mind that some surgeon probationers were called straight out of medical school to serve from 1914 onwards).

 

10 hours ago, RNCVR said:

Many of the Chaplains have MA degrees. 

Not enormously surprising, as many of them were likely to have been Oxford or Cambridge men, in which case the BA course is considered so intense that one automatically qualifies MA by virtue of seniority, seven years after matriculation.

[michaeldr]

6 hours ago, seaJane said:

one automatically qualifies MA by virtue of seniority, seven years after matriculation.

Still the case today I believe

[seaJane]

Indeed.

 

sJ, MA (Oxon) 

[rolt968]

4 hours ago, michaeldr said:

Still the case today I believe

 

2 hours ago, seaJane said:

Indeed.

 

sJ, MA (Oxon) 

The BAs might be London or Durham. I seem to remember that in the 19th century some Anglican bishops had strange/ individual views about ordaining men who did not have Oxbridge degrees

Less likely in this case but not unknown in Anglican circles even in the 19th century. MA is the first degree in the Arts faculty of the ancient Scottish universities (+ Dundee nowadays).

rm MA (St And)

[keithmroberts]

2 minutes ago, rolt968 said:

. I seem to remember that in the 19th century some Anglican bishops had strange/ individual views about ordaining men who did not have Oxbridge degrees

 

Not sure about the original reasoning, but the Portsea Parish here in Pompey, used accept only Oxbridge men as curates, (no retreads either), with the rare exception of colonials. It was a breeding ground for bishops, and almost 30 Great War army chaplains were from Portsea; and at least two naval chaplains in WW2  who lost their lives were ex Portsea, and I think from memory also Oxbridge. I have to date found no evidence of WW1 naval chaplains from Portsea.

[rolt968]

10 hours ago, seaJane said:

Yes - the New Entry Medical Officers (I get to meet them all, and they make me very happy about the future of the RN Medical Service) now undergo the same officer training as was traditional for executive officers, as of a date which I can't recall. But if you are interested I can try to find some relevant articles.

 

That is interesting. I would be interested at some time the future but not just now.

10 hours ago, seaJane said:

The fact that they didn't was something of a running joke up until the Medical Branch changed from Civil to Executive in November 1918, and perhaps beyond. Several of the surgeon probationers report on the teasing they got in the wardroom about whether they would be seasick or not (bearing in mind that some surgeon probationers were called straight out of medical school to serve from 1914 onwards).

Is some of this the kind of thing which was taught intensively to RNVR officers in WW2 in the "knife and fork" coures at Greenwich? I used to know a couple of men, now sadly dead who had been on those.

RM

[seaJane]

4 hours ago, rolt968 said:

Is some of this the kind of thing which was taught intensively to RNVR officers in WW2 in the "knife and fork" coures at Greenwich? I used to know a couple of men, now sadly dead who had been on those.

RM

 

Probably, but I can't say for certain. Let me know when you'd like the references.

sJ

[rolt968]

7 minutes ago, seaJane said:

 

Probably, but I can't say for certain. Let me know when you'd like the references.

sJ

Thanks Jane, when things return to normal, I think.

(I'll send you a PM when I get there.)