Sherwood Foresters Battalion ID please.

[Simon J Emmerson]

Hi Folks. I'm totally stumped as to which Battalion of the Sherwood Foresters this Pte belongs too. None of his uniform matches that of the Robin Hood Rifles. 

Could this be a temporary uniform issued due to shortages? I've enclosed a photo. 

Regards Simon 

 

 

[mark holden]

Looks to be 7th Battalion Robin Hood Rifles. Bugle collars although a standard SF cap badge.

Or possibly PoW feathers with scroll underneath very confusing as you say

[Simon J Emmerson]

5 minutes ago, mark holden said:

Looks to be 7th Battalion Robin Hood Rifles. Bugle collars although a standard SF cap badge.

Or possibly PoW feathers with scroll underneath very confusing as you say

I've never seen a Sherwood Forester studio photo postcard like this. It's a mystery. 

[Simon J Emmerson]

I believe he belongs to the 8th TF Battalion. I've come across a photograph of a member of F Company 8th TF wearing the same uniform. 

[mark holden]

Simon, you could be correct. I am sure that Somewhere at home I have a similar photo of an 8th Bn man. I’ll dig it out tonight 

[FROGSMILE]

I think you’ve stumbled upon information not well known.  Even Churchill’s seminal work on collar badges does not make clear that the 2nd Admin Battalion of Nottinghamshire Volunteer Rifle Corps became the 8th Territorial Force Battalion of the Sherwood Foresters (Notts and Derby) Regiment in 1908.  He’s also vague about the collar badges, saying only that they eventually adopted the collar badge of the regular regiment. It’s clear to me after examining various references that the Sherwood Foresters belated inclusion of Nottinghamshire with the original Derbyshire led to some historical aspects falling between the cracks.  This collar badge seems to be one of them.  Unfortunately there’s no image of the badge anywhere in his book.  You seem to have stumbled upon a deliberate action by 8th Sherwood Foresters to retain collar badges associated with their origins as rifle volunteers.

Edited 7 April , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Simon J Emmerson]

Notts-Rifle-Volunteers-Collingham.pdf

[FROGSMILE]

20 minutes ago, Simon J Emmerson said:

Notts-Rifle-Volunteers-Collingham.pdf 4.33 MB · 1 download

Ray Westlake in his book, ‘Tracing the Rifle Volunteers’ shows the 2nd Admin Battalion of Nottinghamshire VRC being the source of the 8th (TF) Sherwood Foresters.  

The 1st Admin Battalion became the 2nd Admin Battalion in a reorganisation that required renumbering in 1880, as part of the reforms of that year.  Page 194 refers.  It in turn became the 4th VB Sherwood Foresters in April 1887, and 8th TF Sherwood Foresters in 1908.

I’m not sure where the collection of the old Sherwood Foresters museum has gone, but given what you’ve discovered it would be really interesting to try and track down an image of the collar badge concerned.

Edited 7 April , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[mark holden]

The collection of the old Sherwood Foresters museum is very much alive. As a trustee of said museum I’ll ask our curator to look at what we might hold on the 8th Bn and any associated badges. It may take a bit of time as in line with HMG direction she is working from home.

[FROGSMILE]

15 minutes ago, mark holden said:

The collection of the old Sherwood Foresters museum is very much alive. As a trustee of said museum I’ll ask our curator to look at what we might hold on the 8th Bn and any associated badges. It may take a bit of time as in line with HMG direction she is working from home.

 
That will be great Mark and I will be grateful if you can find an image of the badge.  I’m unsure if it was the standard strung bugle badge used also as part of some regiments’ shoulder titles, or whether it was a special pattern all of its own.  I imagine it will be the former, but I’d like to annotate my Churchill book accurately.

 

2 hours ago, Simon J Emmerson said:

I believe he belongs to the 8th TF Battalion. I've come across a photograph of a member of F Company 8th TF wearing the same uniform. 

 

There are more photos of the 8th Battalion at the following link, and although the collar badge can only just be made out, it is definitely the same one: https://derbyshireterritorials.wordpress.com/the-pre-war-years-1908-1913/1911-2/

Edited 7 April , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[mark holden]

 To add to the evidence that the strung bugle collar badges were attributable to 8th Bn Sherwood Foresters here is a picture of L/Cpl Ernest Markwell 8th Bn a pre war Territorial who was killed in action on the 30th April 1915 at Kemmel while serving with B Coy 8th Notts and Derby Regt. 

[Simon J Emmerson]

22 minutes ago, mark holden said:

 To add to the evidence that the strung bugle collar badges were attributable to 8th Bn Sherwood Foresters here is a picture of L/Cpl Ernest Markwell 8th Bn a pre war Territorial who was killed in action on the 30th April 1915 at Kemmel while serving with B Coy 8th Notts and Derby Regt. 

Mark thank you for sharing this. I can now safely say that the photo postcard is that of an unidentified Pte serving in the 8th TF Sherwood Foresters. 

[FROGSMILE]

Super view, thank you Mark, I can now annotate my Churchill book and confirm that the collar bugles for the 8th Sherwood Foresters are the standard universal pattern.  We seem to have identified a lost detail today, which is great.

Edited 7 April , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[OLD ROBIN HOOD]

Greetings from inside the Major Oak in Sherwood Forest. 

 

If I may add my 2 groats worth to this interesting topic. 

Very many years ago I actually saw a scarlet tunic of 4th VB Notts & Derbys in Newark upon Trent. (I think in the late 1960's).

I was at the time struck by the unusual collar badges.  What I most remember is that all the badges and buttons were in white metal not brass.

There was a General Service buff leather belt with it and again the buckle and fittings were in white metal.

Sometime later I found, in a Newark general antique shop, a pair of white metal bugle horn collar badges and some white metal Kings crown

General Service buttons which I bought. (see pictures). 

 

 

 

I am sure that most badge collectors know that between 1901 and 1908 badges were struck for 3 Volunteer Battalions of the Notts & Derby Regiment..

This was a standard Kings Crown Notts & Derby badge struck in white metal  but above the scroll between the two bottom arms of the Maltese cross

was a plaque with the Volunteer Battalion number on it.   Derbyshire had the 1st & 2nd Volunteer Battalions and Nottinghamshire the 3rd & 4th.  So,

the title for Derbyshire would have been 1st Volunteer Battalion, Notts & Derby Regiment, Sherwood Foresters and so on.

However, The Robin Hood Rifles, who should have been the 3rd VB, pointedly refused to change their name, this meant that

only 3 VB badges were produced- 1st VB; 2nd VB  & 4th VB.  The 4th VB eventually becoming the 8th Territorial Battalion, Sherwood Foresters.

These badges are somewhat scarce but they do turn up and at some time or another I have had them all. The only one that I have at the moment

is for the 2nd VB ( see picture below as an example). It can be seen that the striking includes the VB plaque which is integral to the badge. 

 

 

 

Hope that this is of interest.

 

                                                 Old Robin Hood

[Simon J Emmerson]

Very interesting indeed. It's nice to see the badges. Many Thanks for adding to the post. 👍

[FROGSMILE]

I second Simon's vote of thanks.  I think that Colin Churchill is still alive and kicking and I'm sure that he would like to know this, given that it's not shown in his book, as mentioned above.

Edited 11 April , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[john gregory]

4th vb cap badge, 8th Battn.

[FROGSMILE]

Nice to see.  Thank you for posting it John.

[Simon J Emmerson]

5 hours ago, john gregory said:

4th vb cap badge, 8th Battn.

Thank you John for sharing.