Twenty Round Magazine

[reese williams]

I posted this first photo about ten years ago and since then it has grown legs and I see it popping up from time to time. It appeared on another forum and I took the rest of the pictures to answer some questions there. Thought I might as well put them up here.

Only markings are the maker's name and one inspection stamp, both on the spine.

There is a spring in the inside front of the magazine body. It is held with a single rivet at the bottom and folds over the body at the top. It doesn't show in the photos but it only touches the body at the top and bottom.

 

[Open Bolt]

Very interesting - thanks.

[onesearch]

Hang onto it if you can, there seems to be very few about,especially in such nice condition and with a correctly dated pouch. I think i read that they were made for a short while and began to be shipped to the western front in June or July 1918. 

Good pictures of a rare item in good condition.

[Steve1871]

Yes, thank you for sharing! I never knew they made a pouch for it

[593jones]

It may be of interest that Major E G B Reynolds in 'The Lee Enfield Rifle' mentions the large capacity magazines, and has this to say:

 

'At the beginning of 1919(sic) there was a request from the British troops in France for a more certain means of getting off twenty rounds of continuous fire with a rifle under the existing conditions of trench warfare.  When men and equipment became plastered with mud it was often impossible to keep it off the chargers and, in loading, it was inevitably transferred into their magazines and caused malfunctions.  Ways and means were sought to obviate this danger and eventually magazines were designed to hold fifteen and twenty rounds.  A number of these were submitted to trials at the the wartime School of Musketry at Bisley and although the twenty round magazine gave an increased rate of fire, this was more than outweighed by many disadvantages.  Difficulties were experienced in charging up the last five rounds, and firers complained of tired muscles due to continuous action, and consequent loss of control of their weapons.  The big magazine interfered with the grip of the left hand on the rifle and efficient use of the bayonet.  It was also considered too cumbersome and liable to damage.  In view of the many serious disadvantages the large magazine was not recommended and with the war ending the requirement was given no further consideration.'

 

 

[onesearch]

Major Reynolds comments are interesting. A further point not mentioned might be that with the 20 round magazine projecting as it does the firer would have to adopt a 'heads up' attitude which would mean that they presented a larger target to anyone engaging them. The firer could cant their rifle to a high degree in an attempt to mitigate this in times of extreme need, but hardly ideal. The 'heads up' situation was a concern expressed at Warminster when bullpup designs were being evaluated many years later.

[MikB]

49 minutes ago, onesearch said:

Major Reynolds comments are interesting. A further point not mentioned might be that with the 20 round magazine projecting as it does the firer would have to adopt a 'heads up' attitude which would mean that they presented a larger target to anyone engaging them. The firer could cant their rifle to a high degree in an attempt to mitigate this in times of extreme need, but hardly ideal. The 'heads up' situation was a concern expressed at Warminster when bullpup designs were being evaluated many years later.

 

Yes. The thing would be most effectively employed when shooting from the firestep of a trench where clearance for the mag depth could be available, ie. in a defensive role. Since the last phase of the war contained more offensive action where troops must find their own cover during movement, it was significantly less suitable for that. To provide troops with both types would have added to an already complex logistics scenario.

[593jones]

I'm quite surprised that there was a pouch for a piece of equipment that was only trialled, possibly privately made?  I wonder exactly how many of the fifteen and twenty round magazines were made.

[reese williams]

Best estimates I've seen indicate about 120,000 manufactured. Most were scrapped after it was found they didn't perform as expected. I believe a few were used experimental weapons the majority were destroyed.

[593jones]

15 hours ago, reese williams said:

Best estimates I've seen indicate about 120,000 manufactured. Most were scrapped after it was found they didn't perform as expected. I believe a few were used experimental weapons the majority were destroyed.

 

That's a lot more than I would have expected, it would appear from that that manufacture had commenced before the magazines were given the thumbs down at the trials.

[reese williams]

This post and comments on other forums caused me to pull out my copy of The Lee-Enfield and reread what Ian Skennerton wrote. He  says the contract was for 200,00 and was completed in 1918. 120,000 went to France and 30,000 to Weedon for stores. He doesn't mention where the remaining 50,000 went. As far as I know these weren't trialled they were just issued. Some of the comments back from the field were that loading the last 5 rounds effected the balance of the rifle and that the magazine interfered with the grip for bayonet fighting.

[trajan]

1 hour ago, reese williams said:

This post and comments on other forums caused me to pull out my copy of The Lee-Enfield and reread what Ian Skennerton wrote. He  says the contract was for 200,00 and was completed in 1918. 120,000 went to France and 30,000 to Weedon for stores. He doesn't mention where the remaining 50,000 went. As far as I know these weren't trialled they were just issued. Some of the comments back from the field were that loading the last 5 rounds effected the balance of the rifle and that the magazine interfered with the grip for bayonet fighting.

 

Amazing to see that 'bayonet fighting' was still being thought of as a tactic this late. 

 

Anyone have any ideas how many Gew.98 were fitted with one of these long magazines, and how these faired in the trenches? I have a book in my office which would explain this but as I am over 65 I am not allowed to leave my place on a part separate from the main campus to go and get it (and the uni-plods are at the barriers)... Nor can the boys go in my place, as anyone under the age of 20 is also not allowed out and about from our residence area! And no, SWMBO won't do it either... 

[onesearch]

I wonder if anyone has a copy of Skennertons book easily to hand to see if he gives a source to the figures quoted. Not disputing them, just interested to see If they are makers records or something else.

[Michael Haselgrove]

Julian,

Sorry to hear you can't get at your books; how tiresome for you!

To try to answer your question, in "Rifle & Carbine 98" Dieter Storz wrote at page 292.:

"After production of such magazines had been discontinued in November 1917, the Bavarian inspection commission in Nuremberg reported that since its formation in July 1916 it had inspected 272,000 and 160,000 such magazines at the firms of Bing and Scharlach respectively.  For this reason an overall German production of several million detachable magazines is probable". 

I find the number quite surprising given the magazines are quite a rare item on the collectors' market.  However, I suppose most of the magazines were destroyed, along with the rifles, after the war ended.  I'm afraid I haven't found anything on the performance of the magazines.

Regards,

Michael.  

[MikeyH]

1 hour ago, onesearch said:

I wonder if anyone has a copy of Skennertons book easily to hand to see if he gives a source to the figures quoted. Not disputing them, just interested to see If they are makers records or something else.

 

He does say that it seems they were all made by one contractor 'Linley'.

 

Mike.

[Dave1418]

21 hours ago, 593jones said:

I'm quite surprised that there was a pouch for a piece of equipment that was only trialled, possibly privately made?  I wonder exactly how many of the fifteen and twenty round magazines were made.

The pouches are far more available than the actual magazine itself. I’ve had two one of which was a jabez cliff. Due to their size and shape they were used post war a cycle bags for hanging under the saddle which is probably why they’re still about

[Open Bolt]

15 hours ago, Michael Haselgrove said:

"Rifle & Carbine 98" Dieter Storz

Were some of these high capacity then?

[593jones]

15 hours ago, Dave1418 said:

The pouches are far more available than the actual magazine itself. I’ve had two one of which was a jabez cliff. Due to their size and shape they were used post war a cycle bags for hanging under the saddle which is probably why they’re still about

 

Yes, I was assuming that only a relatively few magazines had been made for trials, rather than the circa 200,000 that were in fact manufactured.  Clearly there was also a contract for the pouches.

[trajan]

On 08/04/2020 at 18:59, Michael Haselgrove said:

Julian,

Sorry to hear you can't get at your books; how tiresome for you!

To try to answer your question, in "Rifle & Carbine 98" Dieter Storz wrote at page 292.:

 

 

Thanks Michael

 

Yes, it is a real tiresome business not being able to get into my office. We live in a detatched part of the campus, with only some 500-600 souls here, separated by a mere 500 metres from our area entrance to the main campus entrance, and my office is on main. But the uniplods are following strictly the current regulations not to let anyone aged 65 or older (or 20 or younger!) out of our small area - and apart from knowing us all by sight, they have a list of those covered by the regulation. I am happy to follow self-distancing (we as a family are now just finishing our 4th week), but it is annoying to have everything only just out of reach. As you can imagine, it also makes class preparation for on-line teaching difficult also...

 

Still, that's Off-Topic - my recollection was that those magazines for the Gew.98 held about the same number of cartridges as the SMLE, about 20 or so? I also have a dim recollection that this magazine business helped prompt the development of the MP 18...

 

Julian

Edited 10 April , 2020 by trajan
spelling...

[Michael Haselgrove]

Julian,

That all sounds very difficult for you and your family; let's hope the restrictions can be lifted shortly.

The German magazines had a capacity of twenty five rounds.  

Michael.