2 uniform IDs please

[Gma]

On 07/04/2020 at 04:49, The Inspector said:

Hi Peter and all,

A number of trees on Ancestry some with photos:-

Edith House b. 24.5.1891 died 12.12.1971 DID marry Charles Hanby 1915 9c, 1756, Doncaster.

William House b.9.7.1884 d. Jan 1962, Wortley, Yorkshire.

Emily Elizabeth House b. 4.2.1889 d. 27.2.1974 Manchester had married Samuel William Hempstock,  July 1908, Chorlton. Lancs.

Albert Edward House b. 9.5.1887 d. March, 1967 Doncaster....searching

Regards Barry

Hi Peter & Barry -

I have been in touch with the owners of some of the Ancestry trees & owners of the other photos.

Albert Edward married a Clara Adams. I did find this - but I'm not convinced that it is my Albert Edward (he is the next Great Uncle for me to verify)

Albert Edward House
Rank - Private
Residence - W Rotherham
Military Service Region - Nth East England
Discharge date - 30 Feb 1918
Service # - 426831
Regiment - Labour 
Ref# - G.N.5J.22276, 4/MH/No. 4267D
Unit -York and Lancaster Regiment 
St Marys Roll of Honour
WW1 (WMR 2816) Stainforth Sth Yorks

 

I haven't found William on any 1911 Census as yet. I haven't got his Marriage Certificate, but will send away for it today. His occupation on his Death Certificate is Retired Coal Miner

[Gma]

Thank you all for your help here.

I have ordered the Marriage Certificate for William & Clara today - they usually take 5 weeks to come to Australia, however with the Covid-19 restrictions, I don't know when it will arrive.

I have also ordered the Birth Certificate for Margaret Lilian - incidentally, Margaret is the baby in the photograph & I always knew her as Aunty Lil

Cheers Jenny   

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Jenny,

I didn't realise you were outside the UK.

Are you aware that you can get PDF copies of the entry in the GRO Register of Deaths by email?

It takes about 5 days in ordinary times and is cheaper than getting a certified copy of a death certificate.

(The GRO website does have a notice on it about severe service disruption during the current Coronavirus emergency.I don't know how long it takes now, but it might be an option for you in future in Oz).

The PDF copies give the name, age, address, cause and date of death, and the name of the informant.

They can't be used for legal purposes though (like claiming life insurance or inheriting from a will etc).

 

Go to

https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/login.asp

You have to create an account, search for the death in the indexes using the info you have.

Only once you identify the death entry, and select it, does the option to select a PDF certificate appear.

 

This service isn't available for birth and marriage certificates.

Edited 8 April , 2020 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[The Inspector]

Hi Jenny and all,

Jenny,? How certain are you that the soldier in the kilt is James House? Who identified him and when.?, other than the photo was taken in 1916.

There is a Canadian connection to the Gilyeart family lhttps://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/1263/e003544176?pid=367324&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?dbid%3D1263%26h%3D367324%26indiv%3Dtry%26o_vc%3DRecord:OtherRecord%26rhSource%3D7814&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&usePUBJs=true&_ga=2.225466137.229826353.1586160776-1783877415.1578070585.  Some of Sarah Elizabeth's family emigrated to Canada in 1884, the year she was married in England. They arrived on 1st May 1884 on board "Peruvian" in Quebec from Liverpool.. Difficult to read, but definitely her brother Jackson and sister Hannah. Looking at the Candian files......

Jackson had a son Thomas https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?dbid=1086&h=665562&indiv=try&o_vc=Record:OtherRecord&rhSource=1973...

Regards Barry

[PRC]

There is a Thomas Gilyeart, born 1889 who appears to have a 48th Highlanders connection. Enlisted January 1916, born Ontario, mother was an Eliza. Arrived Liverpool 19th August 1916. Killed in action in France 22nd January 1917.

http://central.bac-lac.gc.ca/.item/?op=pdf&app=CEF&id=B3560-S003

 

CWGC has him as " Son of Jackson and Eliza Gilyeart, of 77, Balliol St., Toronto, Ontario."

https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/181355/gilyeart,-tom/

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

[The Inspector]

Hi Peter and all 

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/56205164#view-photo=153149825

 

Yes, Thomas Gilyeart, photo.

Comments ???

 Regards Barry

Edited 8 April , 2020 by The Inspector

[Gma]

2 hours ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

Jenny,

I didn't realise you were outside the UK.

Are you aware that you can get PDF copies of the entry in the GRO Register of Deaths by email?

It takes about 5 days in ordinary times and is cheaper than getting a certified copy of a death certificate.

(The GRO website does have a notice on it about severe service disruption during the current Coronavirus emergency.I don't know how long it takes now, but it might be an option for you in future in Oz).

The PDF copies give the name, age, address, cause and date of death, and the name of the informant.

They can't be used for legal purposes though (like claiming life insurance or inheriting from a will etc).

 

Go to

https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/login.asp

You have to create an account, search for the death in the indexes using the info you have.

Only once you identify the death entry, and select it, does the option to select a PDF certificate appear.

 

This service isn't available for birth and marriage certificates.

Yes, I go for PDF when I can get them, PDFs are limited to certain years. I was able to get the Birth Certificate for Margaret as a PDF, that has taken only a couple of days in the past - I will let you all know when I receive them. 

Thanks again

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Hmmm.

Interesting Barry.

High hairline.

Arched eyebrows.

Very similar mouth.

I think you're on to something.

Edited 8 April , 2020 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[Gma]

2 hours ago, The Inspector said:

Hi Jenny and all,

Jenny,? How certain are you that the soldier in the kilt is James House? Who identified him and when.?, other than the photo was taken in 1916.

There is a Canadian connection to the Gilyeart family lhttps://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/1263/e003544176?pid=367324&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?dbid%3D1263%26h%3D367324%26indiv%3Dtry%26o_vc%3DRecord:OtherRecord%26rhSource%3D7814&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&usePUBJs=true&_ga=2.225466137.229826353.1586160776-1783877415.1578070585.  Some of Sarah Elizabeth's family emigrated to Canada in 1884, the year she was married in England. They arrived on 1st May 1884 on board "Peruvian" in Quebec from Liverpool.. Difficult to read, but definitely her brother Jackson and sister Hannah. Looking at the Candian files......

Jackson had a son Thomas https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?dbid=1086&h=665562&indiv=try&o_vc=Record:OtherRecord&rhSource=1973...

Regards Barry

 

50 minutes ago, The Inspector said:

Hi Peter and all 

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/56205164#view-photo=153149825

 

Yes, Thomas Gilyeart, photo.

Comments ???

 Regards Barry

Wow, there is definitely a similarity there.

My information was written on the back of the photograph - I have attached it.  This was written by one of Williams daughters & sent to my Dad. Dad = William, Mum = Clara, Lily = is in fact Margaret Lillian, I always knew her as Aunty Lil, Dads Brother Jim = I have taken that to be Williams brother James, Grandma House = Sarah Elizabeth.

[The Inspector]

HI Dai and all

Definitely the same family, loads of info. on the Canadian files. Thomas Gilyeart, Pvt.799436 CEF, was in England in 1916 as the records show and could have visited his Aunt Sarah and his cousin William.

See what Jenny comes back with!

Regards Barry

EDIT Spoke too soon, thanks Jenny.

From past experience the family often get details wrong!

 

Edited 8 April , 2020 by The Inspector

[PRC]

1 hour ago, The Inspector said:

Yes, Thomas Gilyeart, photo.

Bearing in mind that certain points, (edge of cap, neckline) have been added, I suspect the same is true of the eyebrows - shame as that could have been a clincher.

 

FindaGrave has the source as the "National memorial album of Canadian heroes" c1919.

 

Thats available on archive.org. Thomas is on page 72. I'm struggling a bit to get my head around the rationale of the layout - Thomas' Canadian Army Service record shows him as a Bricklayer, but the two companies shown on the facing page of the album are a Manufacturing Company and an Insurance Company.

https://archive.org/details/nationalmemorial00unse/page/72/mode/2up/search/Toronto

https://archive.org/details/nationalmemorial00unse/mode/2up

 

So if it is him then significantly narrows down the time in 1916 when this picture of a nephew visiting an aunt and cousin he had probably never seen before and even if he survived might never see again, could have been taken. He left for France on the 15th November 1916, and spent three days confined to barracks at the start of November for being AWOL for five hours - perhaps he was late back from visiting his relatives

 

Cheers,

Peter

[Gma]

Just now, The Inspector said:

HI Dai and all

Definitely the same family, loads of info. on the Canadian files. Thomas Gilyeart, Pvt.799436 CEF, was in England in 1916 as the records show and could have visited his Aunt Sarah and his cousin William.

See what Jenny comes back with!

Regards Barry

 

 

Hi Barry, see my reply above with the writing on the back of the photograph. I haven't delved into the Gilyeart family too deeply yet

Cheers Jenny

 

[The Inspector]

Hi Jenny and all,

I have edited my post above, often details on photos are incorrect, have you any more info. on which daughter wrote the info. and when it was sent .

Regards Barry. 

[PRC]

6 minutes ago, Gma said:

 

My information was written on the back of the photograph - I have attached it.  This was written by one of Williams daughters & sent to my Dad. Dad = William, Mum = Clara, Lily = is in fact Margaret Lillian, I always knew her as Aunty Lil, Dads Brother Jim = I have taken that to be Williams brother James, Grandma House = Sarah Elizabeth.

 

Is it just me, or does that look like a biro. So unless a family member was RAF crew in WW2 you'd be looking post 1945 as a minimum, somt thirty years after the event depicted. Given that it was written by one of Williams' daughter then the information is surely coming second hand to her and once again pointing to it being written some considerable time after the event.

 

Doesn't mean it isn't "Jim" House, but given the information that has been gleaned from the picture, there doesn't not appear to be any matching individuals that can be found.. so far

 

Cheers,

Peter

[FROGSMILE]

Absolutely superb work Barry and Peter.  Personally I have no doubt whatsoever that it's Thomas Gilyeart in the Canadian Scottish uniform.  Ears are always an especially good indicator, as I recall from being trained in human recognition, and they are identical.  The rest of his features are also a very good match, especially when you consider the pixelation aspect reproducing the image.

Edited 8 April , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Gma]

6 minutes ago, The Inspector said:

Hi Jenny and all,

I have edited my post above, often details on photos are incorrect, have you any more info. on which daughter wrote the info. and when it was sent .

Regards Barry. 

Thanks Barry, 

The photo was definitely sent well after the fact - it is a copy of the original. I am only guessing which sister sent it to my Dad (Dad had 2 brothers & 9 sisters), sadly she has passed away. Sadly, there are only 3 siblings still living but are quite aged & not easy to communicate with. 

if this turns out to be Tom Gilyeart then I am at a loss as to what happened to Jim/James 

Cheers Jenny

[Gma]

8 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Absolutely superb work Barry and Peter.  Personally I have no doubt whatsoever that it's Thomas Gilyeart in the Canadian Scottish uniform.  Ears are always an especially good indicator, as I recall from being trained in human recognition, and they are identical.  The rest of his features are also a very good match, especially when you consider the pixelation aspect reproducing the image.

It certainly is looking like I've been searching for the wrong man. 

You guys are soooo good. 

 

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, Gma said:

It certainly is looking like I've been searching for the wrong man. 

You guys are soooo good. 

 

I think it’s fantastic that between us all, but especially you, Barry and Peter, we’ve captured a snapshot in time over a hundred years ago when a cousin from Canada looked up his English cousin before he went of to fight for kith and kin. With you now in Australia, where my own great uncles ended up after that war, we’re spread right across the span of the Old Commonwealth, Northern and Southern Hemispheres.  It’s a heart rending story, all told in one snapshot.  When the photo was taken so long ago and probably not annotated until years later by another generation, it’s entirely natural that there should be the occasional error in recognition.  Whoever wrote on the back clearly did not recognise the Canadian regimental features that we have between us been able to ID.

Edited 8 April , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

Jenny,

 

I checked the War Diary out for the 15th Battalion C.E.F. for the period when Tom Gilyeart died. Both his service records and the Commonwealth War Graves Commission, (CWGC), webpage for him show him as having died on the 22nd January 1917. His service record adds that he was killed in action. A check of the entries for the 21st - 23rd shows the Battalion in the trenches, but no casualties recorded. The diary doesn't have any appendices for January 1917 so no other check there to confirm when he died.

 

Looking again at the CWGC webpage, the original Grave Registration report actually shows him as died on the 23rd January, along with another 15th Battalion man, Private A.S Rix, who lies in the adjoining grave.

 

They are both buried at Hersin Communal Cemetery Extension. The CWGC webpage for that Cemetery adds "The extension to Hersin Communal Cemetery was begun by French troops, who made over 100 burials, and was taken over by Commonwealth troops and field ambulances in March 1916. It was used until October 1918. The extension contains 224 Commonwealth burials of the First World War; many of the graves are of engineers, mostly from tunneling companies."

 

So possibly the Battalion commander glossed over his own units casuatlies or

Tom was in the Transport lines several hundred yards in the rear - still within range of the German guns or air attack, but 'out of sight' of the Commanding Officer in the frontline, or

He was attached to an R.E. party for carrying \ labouring etc when he died or

Potentially many other scenarios,

 

It may be that a further investigation of Private Rix will shed some light on the circumstances of the death of your relative.

 

Attached is a copy of the Grave Register, courtesy of the CWGC, and the War Diary entries for the 21 - 23rd January 1917, courtesy of Library and Archives Canada.

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

 

[davidbohl]

It's been a long thread but did we see the whole story in the Toronto Star, apologies if you have ?

Dave 

 

From Canadian Virtual War Memorial https://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/remembrance/memorials/canadian-virtual-war-memorial/detail/181355

 

 

Edited 8 April , 2020 by davidbohl
link

[The Inspector]

Hi Jenny and all,

Will carry on looking for "brother James House", as I posted previously there is a mine of info. on the Gilyeart family in Canada, various spellings of the surname but I won't spoil your searching. If you get stuck send me a PM.

Regards Barry.

[AndyJohnson]

Hello

I spotted this thread as I do an occasional Forum search for Tipton, that being my "Specialist Subject". 

 

PRC did an excellent piece of detective work following Clara to 218 Dudley Port, Tipton - her wedding certificate will prove this hopefully - father's name Thomas (age 48 in 1911).

 

If this is the case then, GMA, you have a Great-Uncle who was killed on that most auspicious of days, July 1st 1916 - Clara's brother, William Brookes, who was mentioned in one post. He was killed near Leipzig Redoubt serving with the 9th York & Lancaster Regiment (the subject of Derek Clayton's fine book "From Pontefract to Picardy"). He appears on my Tipton website at: https://www.tiptonremembers.net/index.php/brookes-william

 

This ties in with the Brookes family moving to Yorkshire some time after 1911 Census, as William enlisted in Mexborough around December 1914 - not far from Doncaster. Also Clara marrying in Doncaster in 1914.

 

The WFA Pension Card for William Brookes shows that his & Clara's mother re-married in 1922, also in Doncaster. She then became Mrs M Gillatt, this is proven via freebmd - see below.

 

Gillatt - Gilyeat - rather close isn't it? A post above does mention different spellings. A coincidence or....

 

good luck with the search

Andy

 

PS If the lady on the left is Clara (your g/mother), might the older lady be her mother Margaret (your gg/mother)? It would seem that the entire Brookes family had moved to Yorkshire, this was not an uncommon migration route.

 

 

Edited 13 April , 2020 by AndyJohnson

[KGB]

Doesn't look like the Childers universal tartan (Black Watch) try Douglas? 

[FROGSMILE]

8 minutes ago, KGB said:

Doesn't look like the Childers universal tartan (Black Watch) try Douglas? 

 
The tartan has already been identified within this thread as that worn by the 48th Highlanders of Canada.

[Gma]

Wow, thank you so much for your help gentlemen. I'm feeling quite emotional reading all of this. 

I will go through it all again, print it off & update my family tree