2 uniform IDs please

[FROGSMILE]

10 minutes ago, 4thGordons said:

Not OLIVER patter - 1916 Pattern  as illustrated in the links I posted above.

Chris

Yes, apologies Chris, I’d been searching various references to the belt and in one of them it mentioned Oliver, as if the 1916 pattern was just a development, an advanced version of the Oliver rather than a pattern all of its own.

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

7 hours ago, George Rayner said:

There is a family tree on Ancestry which includes a younger brother John Thomas House who died 1916 in France and Flanders -but he appears to be born in 1903 so only 13 for a Driver!

 

George

Strange though this seems, it appears to be true!!!

Census 1911 Confirms age as 8 years:

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=1911England&indiv=try&h=32780984

 

and FreeBMD confirms a birth in 1903 in Yorkshire:

Births Dec 1903   (>99%)
House	John Thomas		Rotherham	9c	852

[Gma]

8 hours ago, George Rayner said:

There is a family tree on Ancestry which includes a younger brother John Thomas House who died 1916 in France and Flanders -but he appears to be born in 1903 so only 13 for a Driver!

 

George

Hi George, Yes I have seen that one. That is another mystery to be solved... James was a pony driver at Warren Vale coal mine in 1911, his father James was a coal miner. I have John Thomas Birth Certificate but am still waiting for a Death Certificate to arrive (not 1916). 1911 census also states that James & Sarah had 8 children but only 7 living, I haven't found the 8th one yet.

[Gma]

On 04/04/2020 at 23:43, FROGSMILE said:

The man on the left is either a cavalryman, RA, ASC, RE signals, line-laying, or bridging, or he might even be from the Transport Section of an infantry unit.  In effect he’s dressed for mounted duty with a leather bandolier, but there’s no insignia visible to determine what his precise unit was. The vertical stripe on his left cuff indicates that he’s been wounded.  He has a single stripe on the upper arm that indicates he’s been appointed to the first step in authority of Lance Corporal, Bombardier, or Second Corporal, all of which appointments wore one stripe.

 

The soldier dressed in Scottish uniform on the right is wearing a kilt, which in black and white photographs can be more difficult to ID.  It might be ‘government tartan’ which would  suggest he is either, Black Watch, or 9th Bn HLI.  Again no insignia is visible to confirm which, and the dark hose and canvas spats (gaiters) were worn by both.  He wears a plain, brown leather ‘day sporran’ (usually worn when not on parade in a formed body) with its badge missing.  Most unusually he is definitely wearing an officers, or 1st class warrant officers, leather Sam Browne belt, which he must have purloined for the photo, as it is incorrect dress for the Private soldier that he seems to be.

 

The connection with Yorkshire does not preclude any regiment, as by 1916 in particular, men would be sent to whichever unit most needed reinforcements/replacements at the time.

 

 If you can state your grandfather’s name, date of birth, and if possible home town, it might be possible to trace the name of his unit.  A great majority of military records were destroyed in WW2 bombing but medal registers and pension details have survived and provide some basic details providing there was an entitlement.

FROGSMILE, 

I found 2 records on Family Search last night for a William House

1914 - Royal Horse & Field Artillery  90075 51st Brigade

1918 - Military Company/Regiment - Training Reserve  77626   89th Battalion

As libraries are closed at the moment, I can't access the images of the files to see if there is any other information. Does this information fit?

I wish I had decided to research before my Father had passed away. 

Cheers Jenny

[Tom K]

Certain that it is a 48th Highlanders Undress Sporran and that the tartan is Davidson.

 

Also the 1915 Pattern and 1916 Pattern Canadian Leather Equipments are also known as Oliver Equipment  -  the 1915 Pattern being an interim design derived by directly modifying existing 1899 Pattern Oliver Equipment (cutting off certain straps and discarding some components). The 1916 Pattern being newly designed as a replacement for the 1899 and 1915 pattern equipments.

 

Edited 5 April , 2020 by Tom K

[FROGSMILE]

9 hours ago, Gma said:

FROGSMILE, 

I found 2 records on Family Search last night for a William House

1914 - Royal Horse & Field Artillery  90075 51st Brigade

1918 - Military Company/Regiment - Training Reserve  77626   89th Battalion

As libraries are closed at the moment, I can't access the images of the files to see if there is any other information. Does this information fit?

I wish I had decided to research before my Father had passed away. 

Cheers Jenny

 
I’m not able to trace names to records as some forum members are Jenny, but I see from the thread so far that some of them are already on the case and I’m sure that they’ll come up with something.
 

Of the two names you’ve discovered for yourself I’m fairly sure he’s not the latter, as the appearance of the uniforms, especially the Scottish spats, suggest earlier in the war than the Training Reserve formed in 1917.  The Royal Horse and Field Artillery would fit the appearance of the other man with the leather bandolier though, as both were regiments whose men were dressed for mounted duty and so fit with the leather bandolier.  I can’t really contribute more than that, but I think we’ve found some good basic clues if you trace through the thread.

Edited 6 April , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

12 minutes ago, Tom K said:

Fairly certain it is a 48th Highlanders Undress Sporran

Yes I agree 100%, that certainly looks like the sporran concerned Tom.  Specifically, the curved ‘seam’ fits perfectly and I also think the 48th Highlanders tartan looks right when compared with the thread’s initial photo.

Edited 5 April , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[George Rayner]

Of your two finds 90075 on Forces War Records returns this...

First Name: William

Surname: House

Information: Particulars furnished: Woolwich, 23/06/1917.

Rank: Driver

Service Number: 90075

Service From Date: 25/08/1914

Service To Date: 26/02/1915

War Office Ref. Number: RA653

Reason for Discharge: Paragraph 392 King's Regulations (iii) Not likely to become an efficient soldier (cc) Recruits with more than three months service considered unfit for further military service.

Service:

British Army

Primary Unit: Royal Field Artillery

Secondary Unit: 51 Brigade (Why is this important?)

 

George

 

 

[George Rayner]

Whereas 77626 on Find My Past has this piece which says he had previous service in RASC...RTS/4934

 

It also gives father as William House, Cockton Hill,

And first discharged in 1916 as Bishop Auckland also where he signed on in 1914

 

George

Edited 6 April , 2020 by George Rayner

[Gma]

Thank you for that research George - I'm thinking that it isn't "my" William after all - his father was James 

Jenny

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

18 hours ago, George Rayner said:

There is a family tree on Ancestry which includes a younger brother John Thomas House who died 1916 in France and Flanders -but he appears to be born in 1903 so only 13 for a Driver!

 

George

Although the DOB is correct, the JT House who died in 1916 can't possibly  be your John Thomas House. CWGC give no family details which I would expect if a child had been killed.

[Neill Gilhooley]

Sorry for being tardy. Just for future ref here are some 9th Royal Scots leather sporrans.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/124517446@N04/ 

[George Rayner]

A bit of re-grouping required then!

 

Keep searching

 

George

[Dave1418]

15 hours ago, 4thGordons said:

Not OLIVER patter - 1916 Pattern  as illustrated in the links I posted above.

Chris

Well done not one I’ve ever come across before 

[The Inspector]

Hi All

Tree on Ancestry with same details given by "Gma, Jenny" and the photograph.

If this is correct???

The younger brother John Thomas House, RFA 107633 appears to checkout to the family. Soldiers' effects sole legatee mother Sarah E, Pensions ledger Index mother Sarah Elizabeth House.  Brit/Vic MIC "Dead 11.9.16".

Amount paid £8.10s....no doubt our expert can work out when he enlisted from this figure.

Probably gave wrong age on enlisting in Goole, Yorks.

1911 census checks out parents, siblings.    HOWEVER John Thomas's older sister Sarah Ellen House 1899-1960 was married on 20.1.1922 to Arthur Bailey @ St.Wilfrid's Church, Newton Heath, Manchester present as a witness was one John Thomas House !!!  so something not right....looking

Regards Barry

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, The Inspector said:

Hi All

Tree on Ancestry with same details given by "Gma, Jenny" and the photograph.

If this is correct???

The younger brother John Thomas House, RFA 107633 appears to checkout to the family. Soldiers' effects sole legatee mother Sarah E, Pensions ledger Index mother Sarah Elizabeth House.  Brit/Vic MIC "Dead 11.9.16".

Amount paid £8.10s....no doubt our expert can work out when he enlisted from this figure.

Probably gave wrong age on enlisting in Goole, Yorks.

1911 census checks out parents, siblings.    HOWEVER John Thomas's older sister Sarah Ellen House 1899-1960 was married on 20.1.1922 to Arthur Bailey @ St.Wilfrid's Church, Newton Heath, Manchester present as a witness was one John Thomas House !!!  so something not right....looking

Regards Barry

Brilliant progress already, Barry, it’s good to know that you’re on the case!

[PRC]

18 hours ago, Gma said:

1911 census also states that James & Sarah had 8 children but only 7 living, I haven't found the 8th one yet.

 

Hopefully most of this is already known to you.

 

The birth of a William House, with mothers’ maiden name transcribed as  “Gilycart”in the source I have access to, was registered with the Civil Authorities in the Ecclesall Bierlow District of Yorkshire in the July to September quarter, (Q3), of 1885.

 

The 1891 Census of England and Wales records the 5 year old William, born Sheffield, living in a dwelling on Lime Grove, Conisborough, Donaster. This was the household of his parents James, (27, a labourer, born Lound, Nottinghamshire), and Sarah E., (28, born Belton, Lincolnshire). As well William their other children living with them are Albert E, (3) and Emily C, (2) – both born Sheffield so the move to Conisborough is relatively recent.

 

The birth of an Albert Edward House, mothers’ maiden name transcribed as Gilyeart on the source I have access to, was registered in the Sheffield District in Q3 1887.

 

Nearest match for Emily in the birth records for England & Wales is an Emily Elizabeth House, mothers’ maiden name Gilyeart, whose birth was registered with the Civil Authorities in the East Retford District of Nottinghamshire in Q2 1889.

 

The 1901 Census of England and Wales finds the House family living at Catherine Street, Mexboro, Doncaster. Father James, (38) is now an Agent for the Singer Sewing Machine Company. Along with wife Sarah, (39), the household includes William, (15, Coal Miner Pony Driver), Albert E, (13, Coal Driver, Pony Driver), Emily, (12), Edith, (9, born Conisboro), James, (6) and Sarah E, (1) – the last two born Mexboro.

 

The birth of an Edith House, mothers’ maiden name Gilyeart, was registered in the Doncaster District in Q3 1891.

 

The birth of a James House, mothers’ maiden name Gilyeart, was registered in the Doncaster District in Q1 1895

 

The birth of a Sarah Ellen House, mothers’ maiden name Gilyeart, was registered in the Doncaster District in Q2 1899.

 

On the 1911 Census of England & Wales parents James, (48, Coal Miner) and Sarah Elizabeth, were now recorded at 32 Cliff Field, Swinton, Rotherham. The couple have been married 27 years and have had 8 children, of which 7 were then still alive. Still single and living with them were James, (16, Pony driver at Colliery), Sarah Ellen, (12) and John Thomas, (8, born Swinton).

 

The addition of John Thomas bring the number of identified children across the three censuses to 8, so on the genealogy side, one of the questions is which one of the 5 older children from the 1901 Census had died?

 

No likely Canadian record match for an Albert House or James House.

 

William House – born 1885.  No obvious match on the 1911 Census, but also no likely death in the period since the last Census. Was he already serving? What was his occupation on the Q2 1914 Marriage Certificate?

 

Albert Edward House – born 1887. There is a 23 year old Coal Miner Albert Edward House, born Sheffield, who was recorded as the married head of the household at No.2 Doncaster Road, Dalton Brook, near Rotherham.

 

Emily Elizabeth House – born 1889. No likely matches on the 1911 Census of England and Wales, but no likely death record in those countries either. Potentially 4 likely marriages between 1901 and 1911 census dates in England & Wales. Could she have married and emigrated, or emigrated and married and so it’s her husband pictured? Is her death recorded under her married name?

 

Edith House  - born 1891. There is a 19 year old Edith House, born Conisboro, Yorkshire , recorded as a live-in Domestic Housemaid at Rossington Hall, Bawtry, Yorkshire. Possible marriage in the Doncaster District in Q2 1916 to Charles Hanby – no likely match in the Canadian records.

 

James, Sarah and John Thomas are accounted for on the 1911 Census with their parents.

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

[The Inspector]

Hi Peter and all,

A number of trees on Ancestry some with photos:-

Edith House b. 24.5.1891 died 12.12.1971 DID marry Charles Hanby 1915 9c, 1756, Doncaster.

William House b.9.7.1884 d. Jan 1962, Wortley, Yorkshire.

Emily Elizabeth House b. 4.2.1889 d. 27.2.1974 Manchester had married Samuel William Hempstock,  July 1908, Chorlton. Lancs.

Albert Edward House b. 9.5.1887 d. March, 1967 Doncaster....searching

Regards Barry

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

House is a pretty uncommon surname fortunately, and CWGC only list 113 men with that surname as having died in the Great War.

Of these, 12 men, have either a forename beginning J, or of those with only initials listed, have a first initial  J.

Only two men died during the Great War with the surname House, serving in the RFA.

One man was a Staff Serjeant (Farrier) James House, born in Taunton, dying aged 65! Married and living in Tottenham.

Commemorated on a screen wall at Tottenham Cemetery.

 

The only other man listed is JT House, Driver 107633, RFA.

There are no biographical details supplied in the CWGC database for him, so I'm trying to cross reference his name with names on the IWM War Memorials register. This lists 5 Men  who fit J House. The list clearly doesn't include all 12 men recorded by the CWGC, and it isn't entirely clear whether the names on memorials include those who served as well as those who died.

The First three come from Hull, Tyne & Wear, & Dorset, and don't fit very well.

 

The remaining 2:

 

The first is a J House commemorated on the Yorkshire Main Colliery memorial in Edlington between Mexborough and Doncaster, but there doesn't seem to be any mention of what regiment he was in. If this is colliery memorial, then  it implies previous occupation as a miner, and surely a 13 year old wouldn't be on it?

 

House, J

Memorial: Yorkshire Main Colliery (WMR 28147), Edlington, South Yorkshire

 

The second is :

 

House, J

Memorial: Stainforth (WMR 28044), Stainforth, South Yorkshire

 

Stainforth is just north of Doncaster.

The only information on the memorial is the date of death - 2/9/1916

CWGC give JT House's date of death as 11/9/1916.

CWGC do not have any House deaths between 24/8/1916 & 11/9/1916.

 

Is this Stainforth man JT House?

It's possible that the date on the memorial (or CWGC) is wrong.   2/9/16  -  II/9/16 misinterpreted maybe?

Or the Stainforth man is a non-com.

 

Perhaps some local experts can fill in some of the gaps?

 

 

 

[ss002d6252]

4 hours ago, The Inspector said:

Amount paid £8.10s....no doubt our expert can work out when he enlisted from this figure.

 

£10 10s gross - 23 months qualifying service at the point of death. Enlistment in the month from 12 Oct 1914.

 

Craig

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Widening the search brings in more memorials from Swinton, presumably with men commemorated on several memorials?

 

House, James

Memorial: Parishioners Of Swinton - WW1 (WMR 52905), Swinton, South Yorkshire

 

House, James

Memorial: St Mary Magdalene Memorial Chapel - WW1 (WMR 46646), Swinton, South Yorkshire

 

House, James

Memorial: Swinton (WMR 46644), Swinton, South Yorkshire

 

House, J

Memorial: Yorkshire Main Colliery (WMR 28147), Edlington, South Yorkshire

 

House, James

Memorial: Men Of Swinton (WMR 52904), Swinton, South Yorkshire

 

House, James

Memorial: St Marys Roll of Honour - WW1 (WMR 28116), Stainforth, South Yorkshire

 

House, J

Memorial: Stainforth (WMR 28044), Stainforth, South Yorkshire

[The Inspector]

Hi All,

Searching family members for any further clues....this looks as though he may be from our family....

Can anyone find anything else for Albert Edward House other than A/Lcpl 8854 9th York and Lancs and Pte 426831 Labour Corps. Born 1887 lived Rotherham. Pension ledger says disch. 30.2.18 but MIC, Brit/Vic/Star, has 5.3.19.???..looking

Regards Barry

[PRC]

On 05/04/2020 at 00:59, Gma said:

names are left back- William House & Right back - James House

Yes that is my grandmother, Clara Susanna (nee Brookes) holding their 1st born daughter, the lady in the middle is Sarah Elizabeth (nee Gilyeart) who is William & James mother

 

Just to rule out, (or in !), the possibility this might be one of Clara's brothers.

 

The birth of a Clara Susanna Brookes, mothers’ maiden name BATE, was registered with the Civil Authorities in the Dudley District of Staffordshire in the October to December quarter, (Q4), of 1894.

 

On the 1911 Census of England & Wales there is a 16 year old Clara “Susannah” Brookes, born Tipton, Staffordshire who was recorded living at 218 Dudley Port, Tipton, Staffordshire. This was the household of her parents Thomas, (58, General Carriers Labourer) and Margaret, (43). The couple have been married 20 years and have had four children, of which two were then still alive. As well as Clara the couple also have their other surviving child living with them. He was a ‘Wm’ Thomas Brookes, aged 19, an Iron Founders Labourer, born Tipton.

 

The marriage of a Thomas Brookes to a Margaret BATE was recorded in the Dudley District of Staffordshire in Q4 1890.

 

The birth of a William Thomas Brookes, mothers’ maiden name BATE, was registered with the Civil Authorities in the Dudley District of Staffordshire in the July to September quarter, (Q3), of 1891.

 

The marriage of a Clara S. Brookes to a William House was recorded in the Doncaster District in Q2 of 1914. (So can’t use a subsequent Census route to confirm Claras age and place of birth).

 

Possibles from the MiC entries in the National Archive Discovery catalogue.

 

William Brookes 5/13258 Gordon Highlanders then 19194 (NA Catalogued as 9194) Army Pay Corps. VM & BWM only.

2 Kings Liverpool Regiment men with no middle initial – nothing on MiC to suggest Liverpool Scottish. Two others with non “T” Middle initials.

 

Cheers,

Peter

[The Inspector]

On 05/04/2020 at 13:13, Gma said:

That is a good thought George. I'm not sure if GRO are sending Certificates at the moment. When things settle down, I will order. 

Cheers Jenny

Hi Jenny,

I think this is the best way forward

Birth Certs for:-

Margaret L House, 1st qtr, 1915 9c, 1787 Doncaster (probable date  20.2.1915) Middle name probably Lilian, married name Reynolds. Died 10.2.2007 Swanley, Kent.

Evelyn C House, 3rd qtr 1917, 9c, 1453 Doncaster. Middle name probably Clara after her mother, Clara Susannah Brookes.

William's daughters.

As George has posted this MAY give William's regt, service number on the certs. 

Regards Barry

[Gma]

On 07/04/2020 at 02:13, The Inspector said:

Hi All

Tree on Ancestry with same details given by "Gma, Jenny" and the photograph.

If this is correct???

The younger brother John Thomas House, RFA 107633 appears to checkout to the family. Soldiers' effects sole legatee mother Sarah E, Pensions ledger Index mother Sarah Elizabeth House.  Brit/Vic MIC "Dead 11.9.16".

Amount paid £8.10s....no doubt our expert can work out when he enlisted from this figure.

Probably gave wrong age on enlisting in Goole, Yorks.

1911 census checks out parents, siblings.    HOWEVER John Thomas's older sister Sarah Ellen House 1899-1960 was married on 20.1.1922 to Arthur Bailey @ St.Wilfrid's Church, Newton Heath, Manchester present as a witness was one John Thomas House !!!  so something not right....looking

Regards Barry

Hi Barry - yes, I found that also. John Thomas was also the informant for his father (James) death in 1926 & also for his mother (Sarah Elizabeth)s death in 1940. 

I am (impatiently) awaiting a Death Certificate for a John Thomas House in 1972, to rule him out or in

Thanks Jenny