2 uniform IDs please

[Gma]

Hello, 

The attached photo shows my Grandfather on the left & his brother on the right, it is the only photograph I have of either of them. The date written on the back of the photograph is 1916. Both men were from Yorkshire. Any idea of what either of the uniforms are & where I might find any further information, please?

[PRC]

Hi and welcome to the forum.

 

One of the Scots experts may be able to pick up something from the kilt. It may be a trick of the light but your grandfathers left cuff appears to have a vertical stripe on it - possible a good conduct stripe and so potentially a pre-war soldier.

 

Do you have names for them as that may help turn up more information.

 

By the way, is the woman sitting with the child your grandmother? If so it may be the angle but looks potentially more like her mother and brother, so how convinced are you that the soldier on the right is your grandfathers' brother.

 

Cheers,

Peter

[FROGSMILE]

The man on the left is either a cavalryman, RA, ASC, RE signals, line-laying, or bridging, or he might even be from the Transport Section of an infantry unit.  In effect he’s dressed for mounted duty with a leather bandolier, but there’s no insignia visible to determine what his precise unit was. The vertical stripe on his left cuff indicates that he’s been wounded.  He has a single stripe on the upper arm that indicates he’s been appointed to the first step in authority of Lance Corporal, Bombardier, or Second Corporal, all of which appointments wore one stripe.

 

The soldier dressed in Scottish uniform on the right is wearing a kilt, which in black and white photographs can be more difficult to ID.  It might be ‘government tartan’ which would  suggest he is either, Black Watch, or 9th Bn HLI.  Again no insignia is visible to confirm which, and the dark hose and canvas spats (gaiters) were worn by both.  He wears a plain, brown leather ‘day sporran’ (usually worn when not on parade in a formed body) with its badge missing.  Most unusually he is definitely wearing an officers, or 1st class warrant officers, leather Sam Browne belt, which he must have purloined for the photo, as it is incorrect dress for the Private soldier that he seems to be.

 

The connection with Yorkshire does not preclude any regiment, as by 1916 in particular, men would be sent to whichever unit most needed reinforcements/replacements at the time.

 

 If you can state your grandfather’s name, date of birth, and if possible home town, it might be possible to trace the name of his unit.  A great majority of military records were destroyed in WW2 bombing but medal registers and pension details have survived and provide some basic details providing there was an entitlement.

Edited 5 April , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Steven Broomfield]

6 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

 

The soldier dressed in Scottish uniform on the right is wearing a kilt, which in black and white photographs can be more difficult to ID.  It might be ‘government tartan’ which would  suggest he is either, Black Watch, or 9th Bn HLI. 

 

That style of sporran features a lot in Neil Gilhoolie's recent history of the 9th (Highlanders) Battalion of the Royal Scots, They wore Hunting Stewart tartan rather than Black Watch, but tartans are always hard to define in old photos. Just a thought. 

[4thGordons]

7 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

The soldier dressed in Scottish uniform on the right is wearing a kilt, which in black and white photographs can be more difficult to ID.  It might be ‘government tartan’ which would  suggest he is either, Black Watch, or 9th Bn HLI.  Again no insignia is visible to confirm which, and the dark hose and canvas spats (gaiters) were worn by both.  He wears a plain, brown leather ‘day sporran’ (worn when not on parade in a formed body) with its badge missing.  Most unusually he is definitely wearing an officers, or 1st class warrant officers, leather Sam Browne belt, which he must have purloined for the photo, as it is incorrect dress for the Private soldier that he seems to be.

 

A possible alternative to this is that he is wearing a Canadian 1916 pattern belt.

This would be my bet, as the belt seems to be made in several pieces (see looped join by his left arm) in the same manner as the 1916 Pattern Belt

but not generally with Sam Browne belts. (I also see no indication of the central holes usual on Sam Brown's for the central brass "post" sorry not sure of the terminology, used to hold down the extra leather beyond the buckle)

 

The style of leather day sporran shown here was also worn by a number of Canadian, Scottish-affiliated units -- so my bet would be he is serving in a Canadian unit. Is there any Canadian connection with the family?

The Canadian records are well digitised so a search there may be helpful.

Cheers,

Chris

Edited 4 April , 2020 by 4thGordons

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, 4thGordons said:

 

A possible alternative to this is that he is wearing a Canadian 1916 pattern belt.

This would be my bet, as the belt seems to be made in several pieces (see looped join by his left arm) in the same manner as the 1916 Pattern Belt

but not generally with Sam Browne belts. (I also see no indication of the central holes usual on Sam Brown's for the central brass "post" sorry not sure of the terminology, used to hold down the extra leather beyond the buckle)

 

 

The style of leather day sporran shown here was also worn by a number of Canadian, Scottish-affiliated units -- so my bet would be he is serving in a Canadian unit. Is there any Canadian connection with the family?

The Canadian records are well digitised so a search there may be helpful.

Cheers,

Chris

That’s a really good spot Chris, I think you’re very probably right, I didn’t see the looped join until you pointed it out.  The Canadian Scots wore a number of tartans as you say.  It’s difficult to ID other than that there doesn’t appear to be a light coloured over-check.  There were a goodly number of English born soldiers in the Canadian and ANZAC forces and of course many visited their parents homes whenever the opportunity arose.

Edited 4 April , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

3 hours ago, Steven Broomfield said:

 

That style of sporran features a lot in Neil Gilhoolie's recent history of the 9th (Highlanders) Battalion of the Royal Scots, They wore Hunting Stewart tartan rather than Black Watch, but tartans are always hard to define in old photos. Just a thought. 

Another good spot Steven, the sporran would fit, but I think the Hunting Stewart tartan had at least one colour of pale overstripe, although if it’s yellow as I seem to recall it would be more difficult to see in the old style film process.

[Gma]

11 hours ago, PRC said:

Hi and welcome to the forum.

 

One of the Scots experts may be able to pick up something from the kilt. It may be a trick of the light but your grandfathers left cuff appears to have a vertical stripe on it - possible a good conduct stripe and so potentially a pre-war soldier.

 

Do you have names for them as that may help turn up more information.

 

By the way, is the woman sitting with the child your grandmother? If so it may be the angle but looks potentially more like her mother and brother, so how convinced are you that the soldier on the right is your grandfathers' brother.

 

Cheers,

Peter

Thank you for your reply Peter - names are left back- William House & Right back - James House

Yes that is my grandmother, Clara Susanna (nee Brookes) holding their 1st born daughter, the lady in the middle is Sarah Elizabeth (nee Gilyeart) who is William & James mother

[Ron Abbott]

The leather sporran is similar to the sporrans worn by the 9th Royal Scots........but not the same.  

Of course they could have had another batch that I've not seen in photos, maybe Neil can help out there.

 

It appears bigger in size, is the wrong shape and what are the two holes for?  A missing badge? 

Again, I don't recall seeing the 9th Royal Scots wearing badges on their leather sporrans.

 

As for the tartan, difficult to tell.  Could be Hunting Stewart but if I was to make a bet, I'd say not.  But that's by tossing a coin! 

  

Edited 5 April , 2020 by Ron Abbott

[Gma]

11 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

The man on the left is either a cavalryman, RA, ASC, RE signals line laying, or bridging, or he might even be from the Transport Section of an infantry unit.  In effect he’s dressed for mounted duty with a leather bandolier, but there’s no insignia visible to determine what his precise unit was. The vertical stripe on his left cuff indicates that he’s been wounded.  He has a single stripe on the upper arm that indicates he’s been appointed to the first step in authority of Lance Corporal, Bombardier, or Second Corporal, all of which appointments wore one stripe.

 

The soldier dressed in Scottish uniform on the right is wearing a kilt, which in black and white photographs can be more difficult to ID.  It might be ‘government tartan’ which would  suggest he is either, Black Watch, or 9th Bn HLI.  Again no insignia is visible to confirm which, and the dark hose and canvas spats (gaiters) were worn by both.  He wears a plain, brown leather ‘day sporran’ (worn when not on parade in a formed body) with its badge missing.  Most unusually he is definitely wearing an officers, or 1st class warrant officers, leather Sam Browne belt, which he must have purloined for the photo, as it is incorrect dress for the Private soldier that he seems to be.

 

The connection with Yorkshire does not preclude any regiment, as by 1916 in particular, men would be sent to whichever unit most needed reinforcements/replacements at the time.

 

 If you can state your grandfather’s name, date of birth, and if possible home town, it might be possible to trace the name of his unit.  A great majority of military records were destroyed in WW2 bombing but medal registers and pension details have survived and provide some basic details providing there was an entitlement.

Thank you Frogsmile, 

Grandfather - William House, DOB - 9 July 1885. Birth address - 9 Blakehouse Terrace, Nether Hallam. Great Uncle - James House, DOB assumed (awaiting certificate, but I believe the year is correct) 4 Feb 1895. Baptised in Mexborough

Cheers Jenny 

[Gma]

4 hours ago, Steven Broomfield said:

 

That style of sporran features a lot in Neil Gilhoolie's recent history of the 9th (Highlanders) Battalion of the Royal Scots, They wore Hunting Stewart tartan rather than Black Watch, but tartans are always hard to define in old photos. Just a thought. 

Thank you for your reply Steve

[Gma]

4 hours ago, 4thGordons said:

 

A possible alternative to this is that he is wearing a Canadian 1916 pattern belt.

This would be my bet, as the belt seems to be made in several pieces (see looped join by his left arm) in the same manner as the 1916 Pattern Belt

but not generally with Sam Browne belts. (I also see no indication of the central holes usual on Sam Brown's for the central brass "post" sorry not sure of the terminology, used to hold down the extra leather beyond the buckle)

 

The style of leather day sporran shown here was also worn by a number of Canadian, Scottish-affiliated units -- so my bet would be he is serving in a Canadian unit. Is there any Canadian connection with the family?

The Canadian records are well digitised so a search there may be helpful.

Cheers,

Chris

Thank you Chris, 

I don't know of any Canadian connection but as James is being difficult to track that could well be an option - I will look into it for sure

Cheers Jenny

[Tom K]

The gentleman in the Kilt, in addition to the Canadian P16 waist belt, appears to be wearing the undress sporran of the 15th BN CEF (or 92nd or 134th - all being raised from the 48th Highlanders of Canada), minus its badge. The kilt for the 48th would be Davidson tartan. It had red stripes which would appear dark in a B&W photo.

 

Canadian Highland Regiments were fond of these undress sporrans, in addition to the badge, regiments could be could be distinguished by the number and placement of the tassels.

 

Tom K

Edited 5 April , 2020 by Tom K

[Gma]

1 hour ago, Tom K said:

The gentleman in the Kilt, in addition to the Canadian P16 waist belt, appears to be wearing the undress sporran of the 15th BN CEF (or 92nd or 134th - all being raised from the 48th Highlanders of Canada), minus its badge. The kilt for the 48th would be Davidson tartan. It had red stripes which would appear dark in a B&W photo.

 

Canadian Highland Regiments were fond of these undress sporrans, in addition to the badge, regiments could be could be distinguished by the number and placement of the tassels.

 

Tom K

Thank you Tom, 

I couldn't find James' name listed. I don't know if he survived WW1 or not, I know that William did survive. 

Cheers Jenny

[George Rayner]

If this is the correct family then the birth certficates of these two daughters may hold information on his service number and regiment

• • Birth of Daughter Margaret L House(1915–)

    1915 • Doncaster, Yorkshire, England

     

    1915

    30

  • Birth of Daughter Evelyn C House(1917–)

    1917 • Doncaster, Yorkshire, England

     

    1917

 

George

[George Rayner]

Is this your family group on 1901 Census?

Household Members

Name James House

Age 38

Name Sarah House

Age 39

Name William House

Age 15

Name Albert E House

Age 13

Name Emily House

Age 12

Name Edith House

Age 9

Name James House

Age 6

Name Sarah E House

Age 1

 

George

[PRC]

9 hours ago, Gma said:

Great Uncle - James House, DOB assumed (awaiting certificate, but I believe the year is correct) 4 Feb 1895. Baptised in Mexborough

 

Sorry - no likely matches in the Canadian records, assuming he served under that name,

 

Cheers,

Peter

[Gma]

5 hours ago, George Rayner said:

Is this your family group on 1901 Census?

Household Members

Name James House

Age 38

Name Sarah House

Age 39

Name William House

Age 15

Name Albert E House

Age 13

Name Emily House

Age 12

Name Edith House

Age 9

Name James House

Age 6

Name Sarah E House

Age 1

 

George

hello George,

Yes this is the correct family. William age 15, James age 6 & Sarah age 39 are in the photograph

Cheers Jenny

2 hours ago, PRC said:

 

Sorry - no likely matches in the Canadian records, assuming he served under that name,

 

Cheers,

Peter

I couldn't find any either Peter 

[Gma]

5 hours ago, George Rayner said:

If this is the correct family then the birth certficates of these two daughters may hold information on his service number and regiment

• • Birth of Daughter Margaret L House(1915–)

    1915 • Doncaster, Yorkshire, England

     

    1915

    30

  • Birth of Daughter Evelyn C House(1917–)

    1917 • Doncaster, Yorkshire, England

     

    1917

 

George

That is a good thought George. I'm not sure if GRO are sending Certificates at the moment. When things settle down, I will order. 

Cheers Jenny

[George Rayner]

There is a family tree on Ancestry which includes a younger brother John Thomas House who died 1916 in France and Flanders -but he appears to be born in 1903 so only 13 for a Driver!

 

George

[davidbohl]

Looking at James House from the Canadian theme earlier there are a few Canadian records for John House in Royal Newfoundland Regiment and Forestry Corps.

 

Newfoundland Forestry Corps

The Newfoundland Forestry Corps was a non-combatant military unit that formed in April 1917 to supply Britain with the lumber it needed for the war effort. Its approximately 500 volunteers cleared more than 1,200 acres of timberland in Scotland before the First World War ended on November 11, 1918. https://www.heritage.nf.ca/first-world-war/articles/forestry-corps-en.php

 

Perhaps that's where he picked his kilt up ?

As ever always guessing

Dave

[FROGSMILE]

I’ve found an allegedly WW1 day sporran that looks similar to that worn by the subject in the photo.  It’s badge is Seaforth Highlanders, a regiment also emulated in Canada.  The holes in the sporran would fit with the fixture loops on the stag’s antlers.

 

Edited 5 April , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Dave1418]

Hi

the chap on the right is definitely wearing a Sam Browne belt and not a Canadian Oliver pattern. The tongue of the belt is at the extreme length and at the tip is the stud which the centre hole of the tongue fits into. To the right as we look at it there is a D ring on the top for the brace attachments and beneath it is the roughly triangular shape loop for one of the sword frog loops.  Usually the stud fits between the top D and bottom triangle.To the right is a vertical brass bar this will be the sword hanging loop. The Oliver pattern also used a snake clasp.

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Dave1418 said:

Hi

the chap on the right is definitely wearing a Sam Browne belt and not a Canadian Oliver pattern. The tongue of the belt is at the extreme length and at the tip is the stud which the centre hole of the tongue fits into. To the right as we look at it there is a D ring on the top for the brace attachments and beneath it is the roughly triangular shape loop for one of the sword frog loops.  Usually the stud fits between the top D and bottom triangle.To the right is a vertical brass bar this will be the sword hanging loop. The Oliver pattern also used a snake clasp.

I thought so too, Dave, but to my surprise, in addition to the snake buckle type there is a pattern of the Oliver equipment belt that had several of the Sam Browne features that you’ve described. If you do an internet search you will see.

 

Edited 5 April , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[4thGordons]

1 hour ago, Dave1418 said:

Hi

the chap on the right is definitely wearing a Sam Browne belt and not a Canadian Oliver pattern. The tongue of the belt is at the extreme length and at the tip is the stud which the centre hole of the tongue fits into. To the right as we look at it there is a D ring on the top for the brace attachments and beneath it is the roughly triangular shape loop for one of the sword frog loops.  Usually the stud fits between the top D and bottom triangle.To the right is a vertical brass bar this will be the sword hanging loop. The Oliver pattern also used a snake clasp.

Not OLIVER patter - 1916 Pattern  as illustrated in the links I posted above.

Chris

Edited 5 April , 2020 by 4thGordons
adding link for ease of reference