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Geoff Evans

Cecil Dudley Evans Royal Scots/Labour corps

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Geoff Evans

I am trying to find out the military records of my grandfather who served  in WW1. My father always said it was The Black Watch but I wonder how someone from Nottingham at that time could possibly be in a Scottish regiment. His name was Cecil Dudley Evans. I know that he was discharges following being shot through both legs. His party piece was to show off the scars! All I can find is that he was in the Royal Scots (Lothian Regiment) number 301813. He was then in the Labour Corps number   630594. But when I tried to search for his records it came back with a blank. His d.o.b. was 29th Apr 1889 in Radford, Nottingham. I attach the only photo we have of him in his uniform and I would appreciate any information anyone can supply. C D Evans is the soldier on the left. 

Thank you

Geoff Evans - grandson

C D Evans (L).jpg

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Moonraker

Good Afternoon, Geoff, and welcome to the GWF. I suspect that more knowledgeable members than I will be able to help you.

 

May I suggest that you "edit" your thread title (there should be a blue edit button at the bottom of your posts) to read something like "C D Evans, Black Watch/Royal Scots/Labour Corps" which will catch the eye of members who know about these units.

 

Often a soldier's local origins bore no relation to the unit(s) with which he served - the more so as the war went on. A recruit would be allocated to where men were needed the most.

 

(I've sometimes wondered whether Scottish regiments maintained their national integrity more than most, but this isn't my subject.)

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ss002d6252

I've edited the title.


Craig

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Mark1959
Posted (edited)

Welcome Geoff

He appears in a War Office Wounded list. NoK address Nottingham. The list is dated 18/10/17. So he was either sick/wounded in the weeks leading up to that date. With Royal Scots. 

This may or may not be his leg wounding. Though a transfer to the Labour Corps as a possible medical downgraded soldier thereafter may suggest it is. Trying to find any newspaper withit in.

Fold3 have a Pension Ledge card for him 

https://www.fold3.com/image/644601129

This shows a discharge date of 18/2/19. It confirms a GSW to both legs. He got a few shillings a week until 1922 and then a terminal grant of £20; the pension then ceased. 

The address on the card is 239 Denman St. Nott. He is at that address with family in 1911 census return. 

We still have no direct evidence of which battalion he was in.

A search for a SIlver War Badge - given to soldiers no longer fit to serve - does not come up with anything. 

As you have found his service papers do not appear to have survived

edit

Here he is in a very long list of Royal Scots wounded. Checking the others might indicate battalion. Scotsman newspaper 20/10/17. Image courtesy of the BNA

 

evanscd2.jpg.2490d95c48f61c34563061d5b28bf539.jpg

Edited by Mark1959

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Geoff Evans
1 hour ago, ss002d6252 said:

I've edited the title.


Craig

 

Thanks Craig

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Geoff Evans
46 minutes ago, Mark1959 said:

Welcome Geoff

He appears in a War Office Wounded list. NoK address Nottingham. The list is dated 18/10/17. So he was either sick/wounded in the weeks leading up to that date. With Royal Scots. 

This may or may not be his leg wounding. Though a transfer to the Labour Corps as a possible medical downgraded soldier thereafter may suggest it is. Trying to find any newspaper withit in.

Fold3 have a Pension Ledge card for him 

https://www.fold3.com/image/644601129

This shows a discharge date of 18/2/19. It confirms a GSW to both legs. He got a few shillings a week until 1922 and then a terminal grant of £20; the pension then ceased. 

The address on the card is 239 Denman St. Nott. He is at that address with family in 1911 census return. 

We still have no direct evidence of which battalion he was in.

A search for a SIlver War Badge - given to soldiers no longer fit to serve - does not come up with anything. 

As you have found his service papers do not appear to have survived

edit

Here he is in a very long list of Royal Scots wounded. Checking the others might indicate battalion. Scotsman newspaper 20/10/17. Image courtesy of the BNA

 

evanscd2.jpg.2490d95c48f61c34563061d5b28bf539.jpg

 

Thanks Mark, that’s him. Why are there no records available anywhere. I’d love to know where and when he received his injuries.

 

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Geoff Evans

Mark, I’ve little experience of this sort of research. Do you have any advice?

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Mark1959
Posted (edited)

The majority of service papers were destroyed in a raid during the blitz in WW2. Much of what remains is either fire or water damaged. So like with CED we are often left to piece together what we can from the odd bits of records we do have. Many of the experts on th GWF can help to an extent but much has been lost. We are missing the vital bit of info as to his battalion and this might have changed during his service

As has been suggested the number would suggest 7th Royal Scots. But many of the numbers around him in the list may suggest the 9th. Looking at the war diaries of the 2 units I can see no event causing mass casualties. So I do not think that list is going to help. 

His medal entitlement - the pair of British War and Victory Medals - indicates he did not serve overseas in theatre prior to the start of 1916. Beyond that and knowing he was "wounded" in Sept/Oct 1917 serving with the RS, ended up in the Labour Corps and was discharged early 1919 we know next to nothing. 

Perhaps others can come up with more.

Edited by Mark1959

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Geoff Evans

Thanks Mark. I’ll wait to see if there are any further comments. Appreciate what you’ve told me so far. 

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Neill Gilhooley

Certainly 9th RS were active at Third Ypres (espec 20 Sept 17), hence the long casualty lists. In October they were at Heninel-Wancourt with much patrolling. I think 7th RS were in Egypt. As Mark says, we cannot be sure...

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Mark1959

Must have missed that. Perhaps looking at wrong diary. 20/9/17 would be about the right time. I will see if I can find any records for the other chaps in the list. 

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Geoff Evans

Thanks Neill

I never heard mention of him being in Egypt but recall him saying he received his wounds “standing to attention” in Belgium.

The date you mention of 20thSeptember 2017 fits with a previous post of him being mentioned in a list of casualties of October that year.

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Mark1959
Posted (edited)

On the list shown

Diggle was KIA 20/9/17 whilst serving with the ninth

Gall was admitted to a Field Ambulance on 25/9/17 with the 9th.

Looking for others...

S D Dawson was KIA 20/9/17 whilst with the 9th

Forsyth was admitted to a Field Ambulance whilst with the 9th on 21/9/17.

No man so far found not with the 9th 

The pattern is pretty clear. 

It suggests strongly he was serving with the 9th and was wounded there in late Sept. More than likely on 20/21st when there was around 200 casualties. 

So 3rd Ypres otherwise known as The Battle of Passchendaele

Edited by Mark1959

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Geoff Evans

Thank you to everyone. Would it be safe for me to assume that he received his injuries in September 1917 while serving in the 9th Royal Scots during action around the Ypres area?
This is more than we have ever learned before. My only lasting regret is not asking him while he was alive and of course, like many men who served in the Great War, he never talked about it. 

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Mark1959

Still editing the last post when you posted. My belief is Yes. I can find no one, that I can find records for,  on the published list who was not with the 9th. So high % probability. So 3rd Ypres otherwise known as The Battle of Passchendaele

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Geoff Evans

Thanks again Mark

If this is the case then we have an incredible coincidence in the family. My nieces husband had a family member killed on the 26th of September 1917 at Passchendaele. We visited his grave at the Tynecot cemetery a couple of years ago. We also attended the ceremony at the Mennen Gate - very emotional.

 

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GWF1967

“No Labour, No Battle” - Starling + Lee  lists his Labour Corps No. 630594, in a block (622800 - 649400) issued between July - September 1918. 

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RussT

Going back to the question of why he was in the Royal Scots (RS) - as suspected he was simply posted to them because they needed men at the time.

 

The record for Percy Monague Antill, who was 301812 RS, survives - he was also from Nottingham (aged 37).

 

He was a Derby Scheme man, attesting in Jan 1916. He was mobilised to the Notts & Derby Depot in Derby on 10/08/1916 and posted to the 2/7th RS a few days later on 14/08/1916 and given the 4-digit TF RS number 4382. The 2/7th RS at this time were in Essex, going to Ireland in Jan 1917. Antill died there in 1919. Early in 1917, he would have been re-numbered from 4382 to 301812.

 

My proposal is that Evans was similarly mobilised and posted to the 2/7th RS on the same day (given that he had the next number) - there might have been a small bunch of Nottingham men similarly posted. Given that the 2/7th RS were in Essex, it's likely that Evans never set foot in Scotland.

 

Looking at the RS medal rolls for similar numbers reveals that men served with many different RS Battalions. I would conjecture that he (and others perhaps) were sent at sometime to an IBD in France and posted to a different RS Battalion (probably the 9th) upon arrival. Perhaps this happened just before the Battalion moved to Ireland.

 

Regards

 

Russ

 

 

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Geoff Evans

Thanks Ross. Its all getting a little confusing.

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RussT

Plenty to take in - anything in particular confusing?

 

I just note that:

 

4392/301820 John Walsh was also posted to the 2/7th Bn RS on 14/08/1916. He was from Nottingham

4393/301821 William Henry Green was also posted to the 27/th Bn RS on 14/08/1916.He was from Derby

 

Regards

 

Russ

 

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Geoff Evans

So could it be that my grandfather was sent from Essex to France where he received his injuries in 1917 and whilst recuperating his regiment was sent to Ireland. On the other hand the records quoted in a previous post suggest that he was at Passchendaele and injured around the 20th or 21st of September 2017. Are you saying this can’t be possible as he was in France st that time?

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RussT

His Regiment was the Royal Scots - but there were many Battalions of that Regiment just like any other Regiment.

.

Not sure I understand your question. All I'm saying is that he originally joined the 2/7th Bn RS with whom he did his training. As some point in time (possibly early 1917) he was sent to France and was posted to a different (active service) Bn of the RS with whom he received his injuries.

 

Regards

 

Russ

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Neill Gilhooley

There are lots of 'Notts Scots' in my index of 9th Royal Scots, from surnames A-D, for example, these include Baggaley 301368, Blagdurn 302065, Champion 302504, Culley 302437 as well as Diggle as noted.

https://neillgilhooley.com/9th-royal-scots/index/ 

The second-line battalions (2/7th, 2/9th etc) at home sent a lot of drafts to the BEF, especially after the Somme losses meant 65th Division were unlikely to go to France and Flanders. A great many men were posted to different battalions at 20 IBD at Etaples.

Naturally, I would suggest anyone taking an interest in 9th Royal Scots to read my book on the battalion.

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Neill Gilhooley

Another posted man.. but this is not the GWF topic I am looking for ...

 

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