POSEN STREET - LOOS 1915

[MERLINV12]

I'm trying to find the location of "Posen Street", I have found "Posen Alley" & "Posen Station", these are west of Hulluch (NW of Loos).

 

Looking for "captured German trenches in old German Lines", and "new assembly trenches", which are near "Posen Street", (Sept-Oct 1915), I think I have checked all the usual map sources, but being a relative novice, I may have missed something .

 

Trying to find where my Great Uncle (1st Batt Northamptonshire) fell, during the attack on Hulluch, his Battalion were mixed up with the Black Watch & 2nd Batt Sussex, having attacked and found the German wire had not been cut by the bombardment, they retreated back to their own lines, he was shot a few feet from "home" (eye-witness account by his friend from same village, who went out to him, but he was dead).

 

Hopefully someone more experienced than me may be able to help, especially those with interest in the 1st Batt Northamptonshire, Black Watch, and 2nd Batt Sussex Regiments.

 

TIA.

[Don Regiano]

36cNW3 G23 b

 

[MERLINV12]

That was fast, many thanks.

 

Is this map correct for Sept-Oct 1915 ??

[Don Regiano]

16 minutes ago, MERLINV12 said:

That was fast, many thanks.

 

Is this map correct for Sept-Oct 1915 ??

 

Map dated 25.8.15.

 

Flagged on modern map:

 

[MERLINV12]

Thanks once again, sorry to be a numptie, but on the original map, where do you think Posen Street starts and finishes ??

 

I have just found a map dated 7-10-15, which is only 6 days earlier that the day I am interested in, it appears that there are extra red lines (trenches) on it.

 

Could all that extra amount of trenches have been dug in 6 weeks ? 

 

[Don Regiano]

33 minutes ago, MERLINV12 said:

Thanks once again, sorry to be a numptie, but on the original map, where do you think Posen Street starts and finishes ??

 

I have just found a map dated 7-10-15, which is only 6 days earlier that the day I am interested in, it appears that there are extra red lines (trenches) on it.

 

Could all that extra amount of trenches have been dug in 6 weeks ? 

 

 

 

Distinctly possible I would have thought.

 

According to Rats Alley, Posen Street ran through G18 b, c, d, 23b, 24a.  here's a wider mao to show its full length:

 

[MERLINV12]

Thanks for explanation, war diary says NEAR Posen Street, so now I know the extent of PS, just need to find "captured German trenches in old German Lines", and "new assembly trenches", which are near PS, but as PS is so long, not going to be easy.

 

Need to find "new assembly trenches", which were dug 9th, 10th, & 11th October 1915, not easy this research game !!!

[Don Regiano]

42 minutes ago, MERLINV12 said:

Thanks for explanation, war diary says NEAR Posen Street, so now I know the extent of PS, just need to find "captured German trenches in old German Lines", and "new assembly trenches", which are near PS, but as PS is so long, not going to be easy.

 

Need to find "new assembly trenches", which were dug 9th, 10th, & 11th October 1915, not easy this research game !!!

 

I think you need to be looking around the Lone Tree and Northern Sap area to begin with.  There is reference to these in an operational order dated 20.9.15.  However, that might have related to an earlier attack.  There is reference in the 2nd brigade diary to 1 Northants being attached to 1 Brigade on 13.10.15.  I have only been able to have a cursory glance at the 2 Brigade war diary.  It needs a better sit down to read it.  The OO for Sept is here: (prior to it are some reports on action at the end of Sept)

 

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/60779/43112_1267_0-00000?backurl=&ssrc=&backlabel=Return#?imageId=43112_1267_0-00226

[Don Regiano]

Report by I Brigade but not a great help:

 

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/60779/43112_1261_0-00000?backurl=&ssrc=&backlabel=Return#?imageId=43112_1261_0-00293

[brianmorris547]

I had a look at the WD for the Commander RE 1 Div (1245/1-4). Attached to October 1915 there are some Daily Progress Sheets showing the work carried out by each of the three Field Companies. These start at p 554/901 (Ancestry). It mentions a new communication trench being laid out from G 30 b 6 4 to H 25 a 11 by 26 FC but these co ordinates are to the SE of Posen Street near the Chalk Pit. There may be more info in the WDs of 23 FC RE, 26 FC RE and the Pioneer Bn. I will have a further look. 

Brian

[MERLINV12]

Don & Brian,

 

Many thanks for your help and links.

 

Brian: The Northants WD mentions "Assembly Trenches" being dug from 8th-11th Oct, rather than Communication Trenches, (do you think that means the regiment themselves or the RE), if you could look for "Assembly Trenches" I would be very grateful.

 

Don: Do you know if the docs in your links are available on FMP ?

 

I am going to try and locate Black Watch, 2nd Batt Sussex, and 10th Gloucesters WD for the period to see if they give trench locations.

 

For interest, newspaper report.

 

[Don Regiano]

6 hours ago, MERLINV12 said:

Do you know if the docs in your links are available on FMP ?

 

I can't say for sure as I don't subscribe to FMP but I would expect them to be available.  When I searched on Ancestry, I just searched for "Various (Infantry Bridages (sic), 1st Division) and struck lucky.  Normally, especially for battalion war diaries, I go to the National Archives site to search and obtain the WO 95 reference and use the latter part of that reference in the "key words" section on Ancestry.  I'm not sure what system for searching is used by FMP - perhaps someone will come along to explain.  Ancestry's reference system is notoriously appalling (Including the above mis-spelling of Brigades).

[Don Regiano]

I've had a quick read of the battalion's war diary for 13 October.  My reading is that the assembly trenches and BN HQ were located at 18 c (Central) with HQ moving half a mile toward the enemy - this would put it in square 18 d.  At 7pm HQ was moved temporarily to point 18 - that is in 24 b. - see map in post #6 above.  Updated modern map below marks point 18 on it.

 

 

[MERLINV12]

Don,

 

Thanks for your efforts, can I ask how you know "Point 18" was in 24b ?

 

The object of this exercise is to try and find out where he fell, we know he made it back to within a few feet of the trench, but the question is which trench, old German line, assembly trenches, our front line trenches, hard to know which ones are described in WD and witness account.

[Don Regiano]

2 hours ago, MERLINV12 said:

Don,

 

Thanks for your efforts, can I ask how you know "Point 18" was in 24b ?

 

The object of this exercise is to try and find out where he fell, we know he made it back to within a few feet of the trench, but the question is which trench, old German line, assembly trenches, our front line trenches, hard to know which ones are described in WD and witness account.

 

If you look at the lower map in post #6 above you will see a square numbered 24 with the letter "B" in the northeastern sub-square.  In there is the number 18.  Often these numbers actually equated to a trench map reference and were used as such in the diaries (I am surmising that that is the case here).  In this case, it would be 24.b.1.8 or, to give it its full reference:  36cNW3.G.24.b.1.8.

 

Yes, the war diary isn't very clear which is why I mentioned the bit about the assembly trenches and battalion HQ being in c central - or, to put it another way, somewhere around G.18.c.5.5.  It may be that they were trying to get back to the assembly trenches.  I don't know enough about the disposition of the "old German trenches" about that time to say with some certainty where they were.  This may require a bit of research in the various battalion/brigade diaries a bit before October (possibly September as there appears to have been an offensive around the third week of September which captured some ground - I get the impression this led to the occupation of the German trenches), or looking at various books on Loos/Hulluch in 1915 or for an expert to come along here to help out.

[MERLINV12]

`Don,

 

Many thanks once again for your help,  I now have 1st & 2nd Brigade WD and am currently reading and re-reading them for clues, I have found a map that is dated 5 days before the attack on Hulluch, however not having any real experience of trench maps it is hard for me to fathom out.

 

The McMaster description is: artillery arcs etc with zero line for British battery south of Vermelles - fighting map; manuscript: British and German trenches during Battle of Loos with markings for attack on Hulluch;  so should be correct for my purposes.

 

Just need a "map man" to explain the differences between dotted & solid lines, presume Blue is British, and Red is German (I have seen maps with these colours reversed though !) 

 

Map extract below, particularly interested in identifying the blue dotted & solid lines in 18 B & D, I know the straight blue line is an artillery zero line. The 6 pencil crosses are the first objective for attack, where the wire wasn't cut.

 

[brianmorris547]

The WD of the 1 Divisional HQ General Staff for 07/10/1915 records that it was 2nd Brigade which was to dig Assembly Trenches behind a line to be captured by 1st Brigade. The captured line would then be used to mount gas cylinders. This line was close to the Lens - La Basee Road from H 13 a 4 5 to H 19 a 8 0. In the appendix to the WD is Operational Order 114 which records that 2 IB were in Trenches to the West of this line at G 24 to G 18. 

Brian 

[Don Regiano]

You might also find this map of interest as it shows the location of the German trenches.

 

http://digitalarchive.mcmaster.ca/islandora/object/macrepo%3A71680/-/collection

[MERLINV12]

Brian, Don,

 

Thanks for the great info, will get busy doing some plotting on maps.

 

Michael.

[brianmorris547]

Michael

The black line with the six pencil crosses is the line H 13 a 4 5 to H 19 a 8 0 that was to be captured by 1st Brigade.

Brian

[MERLINV12]

38 minutes ago, brianmorris547 said:

Michael

The black line with the six pencil crosses is the line H 13 a 4 5 to H 19 a 8 0 that was to be captured by 1st Brigade.

Brian

 

Brian,

 

Yes, came to that conclusion when I added a line to the map from your map refs.

 

Next thing to establish is the thin blue line 250yds West of the 6 cross line, the assembly line, matches G18 to G24.

 

Michael.