N White Posted 30 March , 2020 Share Posted 30 March , 2020 Had some time today, as we aren't going anywhere, so I broke out some bayonets to go through and take pics of. Quick, anybody see the WW1 German one hiding? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 30 March , 2020 Share Posted 30 March , 2020 1 hour ago, N White said: Quick, anybody see the WW1 German one hiding? The one with the recessed muzzle ring.? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve1871 Posted 30 March , 2020 Share Posted 30 March , 2020 You were VERY QUICK there SS! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve1871 Posted 14 April , 2020 Share Posted 14 April , 2020 At the risk of sounding clueless, worse since I even have one, but these are Gras bayonet’s right? Ait would be great to expand your thread/post here to show comparisons, 2-3 together for any different variations and markings still an impressive pic. Thanks Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N White Posted 14 April , 2020 Author Share Posted 14 April , 2020 Since there is interest, yes, many Gras. I collect all the various makers. Some shots of the rarer commercial made ones below. The Ersatz one is German modified for the Gew 88, a specifically relevant one for this forum. They countersunk half the muzzle ring and shaved the pommel flat. There are many other ways they converted them, including completely rehilting the blade S98 style, but alas I do not have one of those. Waffenfabrik Steyr is Greek, and Ursine de Steyr French, but unfortunately not much is known about the final destinations of other commercial Gras. They are either unserialled, or serialled unlike other known styles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyBsk Posted 15 April , 2020 Share Posted 15 April , 2020 Nice pieces there. i believe the LR proofed are for belgian commerzial exports of Gras M1874 system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve1871 Posted 15 April , 2020 Share Posted 15 April , 2020 More comparison pics if you could, a regular one( the pommel) beside the German one to compare the two.... regular to Greek and such and muzzle ring pic’s would be great. You show over 2 dozen in first pic, must have many photo’s showing differences is you don’t mind. just examples to show what I mean to show how they can differ. Just when you have spare time, if you wish, hope you are doing well these day’s Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 18 April , 2020 Share Posted 18 April , 2020 Iv'e always admired your Gras collection Nwhite, the product of dedicated searching for all those makers! So, thanks for sharing mate! Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve1871 Posted 18 April , 2020 Share Posted 18 April , 2020 Yes, if you stressed for time, I still grateful for your post, photos, thanks again NWhite! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N White Posted 18 April , 2020 Author Share Posted 18 April , 2020 Sorry for the delay guys. While my wife is a teacher, and thus home with our monsters, I still have to go work and just did not have the time to break them out again until today. So, multiple views of the converted one, as requested. Digging deeper into variants, you can tell if the bayonet was issued originally to a new made Gras, or a Chassepot conversion by the serial. The conversions will have block letter prefixes, while new Gras have script. Starting around 1878, the French started buying bayonets from commercial firms, domestic and also foreign (Steyr). Most of these will usually have block prefixes, as they were used on converted Chassepots, but, I have an 1877 dated St Etienne made one with a block letter. All French purchased Steyr will say Ursine de Steyr on the spine, while the Greek will have Waffenfabrik Steyr. That said, I have a French serialled one with NO script, and only a small OEWG stamp. On the other side of the coin, there is a Ursine de Steyr marked one with a Greek serial. Greek serials are always between the rivets of the guard. You can see in the pics that the font is the same as a legit Waffenfabrik Steyr Greek model. Greece did buy many French Gras later, but I do not see any remains of old French markings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N White Posted 18 April , 2020 Author Share Posted 18 April , 2020 (edited) Part 2, guess I hit my upload limit for now. These are the Greek serialled ones I described above. And as a teaser, I have something REALLY COOL (Gras related) coming from far away (hopefully soon) but shipping is sadly delayed by Corona. Edited 18 April , 2020 by N White Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyBsk Posted 19 April , 2020 Share Posted 19 April , 2020 Usine de Steyr, when 1878 engraved on spine it could be serialed to greek contract correctly even with the french description, the greek contracts are confirmed in 1877-86. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N White Posted 19 April , 2020 Author Share Posted 19 April , 2020 Andy, that is interesting, but I suppose it makes sense. New day, lets see if it lets me upload the scriptless French one. Regular Steyr will have OEWG on the press stud, and the front of the tang. This one is missing the front of tang stamp. Whether worn off or never there, I can't say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 19 April , 2020 Share Posted 19 April , 2020 17 hours ago, N White said: ... Greece did buy many French Gras later, but I do not see any remains of old French markings. Some time ago I traded in a Gras adapted for the Greek Mannlicher Y1903/1914 rifle and that still had the French script on the blade back. Sorry, no photographs or any other records... Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve1871 Posted 19 April , 2020 Share Posted 19 April , 2020 Excellent photo’s, thank’s. I love learning something new, on your photo showing 2 bayonets facing left in scabbards to show pommels. The one in front has the large “ hump” style while the rear one is not as pronounced. Was were they made that different, later model or were later ones, converted milled down or what. Just trying to learn here. I have a French/ Greek conversion and an original French, I really do not know much more. Again, great photos, Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N White Posted 19 April , 2020 Author Share Posted 19 April , 2020 (edited) Steve, if you are referring to one of the 1st 3 pics, the shaved one is the one modified by the Germans for the Gew88. All Gras have a hump, though there are a few lookalikes that do not. Trajan I have seen the conversions done on French bayonets before, just have not had time money and opportunity all come together at the same time. They dont seem to carry a premium over "normal" Greek converted ones, but certainly are less common. My latest acquisition might be a Greek convert, but maybe not. That's part of why I bought it, it was... odd. We see when (hopefully not if!) it arrives. Edited 19 April , 2020 by N White Typo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyBsk Posted 19 April , 2020 Share Posted 19 April , 2020 Possible there are missing the Usine de Steyr on backspine, from serials i would think the bayonets were equiped with transformed Chassepots M66/74 with new Gras cartridge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N White Posted 19 April , 2020 Author Share Posted 19 April , 2020 I have seen one other with the OEWG spine stamp and no script. I have not seem one with both the stamp and the script. Mine is very crisp and fresh, I doubt very much that there was ever anything there other than the stamp. Everything lines up exactly right for a French used Steyr, serial, other marks, etc. I just do not know why the OEWG stamp and no script. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyBsk Posted 20 April , 2020 Share Posted 20 April , 2020 I personally believe the OEWG stamp is of later production, possible very late 70ies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve1871 Posted 28 April , 2020 Share Posted 28 April , 2020 NWhite Do you have all the makers, I think some firms in Sublime had contracts? Do you have a complete list of makers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N White Posted 28 April , 2020 Author Share Posted 28 April , 2020 I do not want to say I have them all, lol. Every time I say that, I find another. Rather, let us list, makers and variants. 3 French arsenals, Chatellerault, St Etienne, and Tulle. 2 French commercial for France, Paris Oudry and L Deny Paris Ursine de Steyr for the French. This comes in 2 script sizes. That is what I know of for the French. Foreign contracts: Waffenfabrik Steyr for the Greeks Alex Coppel for ? (I have 2, one missing a proof) none have serials Manufacture Chatellerault Henry Entrepreneur for ? (I have 3, all serials under 5000 SL oval St Etienne for ? (One has turned up serialled greek style, mine is not) Weirdos: Oewg stamped one for France (discussed above) Ursine de Steyr serialled for greeks I also have a blank one. No markings at all. Call it 7 companies, but 10 script variants? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve1871 Posted 30 April , 2020 Share Posted 30 April , 2020 Thanks N White, That is a great help for me! Now All I need is a dozen more! But really, 😊 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve1871 Posted 10 May , 2020 Share Posted 10 May , 2020 Hey N WHITE Since the Gras rifle was a center fire conversion of the Chasspot, and new made Gras later, I wonder if the brass Chasspot fit the new made Gras. If so, in war, the right weapon, Bayonet , or other would be the one that fit, worked, was on hand...... If this fits, do you also collect the chasspot batonets??? Just Curious Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N White Posted 10 May , 2020 Author Share Posted 10 May , 2020 Steve, not only do they all fit the same (plus or minus tolerances) but the French retained Chassepot bayonets for Gras carbines. (Longer bayonet for shorter gun, where have we seen that before). That's part of why you can find new made Chassepot bayonets into the mid 1870s. They did aggressively buy Gras bayonets for the converted long rifles, so I do not think the Chassepot bayonets were used on Gras long rifles. The difference between weight and balance of the gun with the 2 bayonets fixed is enourmous. It would be less an issue with a Carbine/Musketoon. I have a few Chassepot bayonets, but there is a LOT more variety in Chassepot and Chassepot clones, and I lack the means to chase them all. On the other hand my Chassepot rifle is one of my favorites to shoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve1871 Posted 11 May , 2020 Share Posted 11 May , 2020 Hey N White, The next time you go to the range, It would be great to bring your Gras and Chasspot with bayonets to “ dress them up” and take a bunch of photos for the forum to envy!!! Pleeese!!😊 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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