20th Royal Fusiliers

[Paul Tyson]

My Great Uncle Harold Holmes Tyson served with the 20th Royal Fusiliers through to 1918 when he was commissioned. Amongst his personal effects is this letter, dated 26th/27th May 1917 but likely referring to events a few days previously. He was in the Croisilles area at the time. The letter reads: "The barbarous methods of the enemy were much in evidence after the attack. Until nightfall enemy snipers kept up a continuous fire on our wounded many of whom were writhing in agony near his line. After dark enemy patrols came into "no man's land," collected our killed and wounded [underlined], heaved them into a big pile and lighted an enormous human bonfire." 

 

The letter is in his hand but it is most unlike his other letters. Having survived High Wood Harold was not given to hyperbole and none of his other letters are angry in tone, although he did have a lifelong hatred of "the boche".

 

From the 20th Royal Fusiliers war diary I assume the attack he refers to was a 20th May assault on a position referred to as the HBG Tunnel line but there is no mention of this incident. It appears from the address at the top he may have been attached to 5/6th Scottish Rifles at the time in question so perhaps this was a different attack.

 

If anyone with knowledge of the 20th Royal Fusiliers or the fighting in the Croisilles area knows any more about this I'd be very interested to hear it.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

[PRC]

Hi and welcome to the Forum.

 

His Medal Index Card shows him as commissioned on the 17th December 1917 in the Northumberland Fusiliers, but shows the unit on his British War Medal and the Victory Medal as Northumberland Fusiliers attached R.A.F. Very much looks like it was the Army rather than the Air Ministry that issued his medals.

 

The March 1918 Monthly Army List, (the first I had to hand after the date of his commissioning), shows an H.H. Tyson attached to the Regular Army Battalions of the Northumberland Fusiliers – unfortunately they have a joint list covering the 1st & 2nd Battalions. This may have only been an administrative posting as he could well have been physically serving with one of the other Battalions of the Regiment.

 

The clearest clue may come from his officers file, but these are not online. Held at Kew you either need to visit, use their (expensive) copying service, or trawl this forum for freelance researchers who offer to do this, (other websites and researchers are also available

Obviously in the current climate all those are pretty much non-starters.

 

His personal file is held under reference WO 374/70165 and shows his unit as The Northumberland Fusiliers.

See https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C740285

 

His RAF Service card, (under H H Tyson), can be previewed on the National Archive website in a watermarked version. It can also be downloaded for a small fee. I believe it’s also available on FindMyPast, (sorry I don’t subscribe so can’t check). Looks like he joined in July 1918 from the Northumberland Fusiliers.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D8236566

 

You say from his letter that he may have been attached to the 5th/6th Scottish Rifles at the time of the incidence. Have you checked out that units war diary for the period? Should be on Ancestry, if not dowloadable for a small charge from the National Archive.

 

I think this is the one you need but please check: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7353828

 

That unit was part of the 33rd Division.

See: http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order-of-battle-of-divisions/33rd-division/

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

[EDWARD1]

The letter is headed 2nd RWF & 5/6th Scottish Rifles. 2nd Royal Welsh Fusiliers & 5/6th Scottish Rifles (Cameronians) both 33rd Div 19th Brigade.

[Colin W Taylor]

I'm pretty sure the quote above is from Graham Seton Hutchison of 100 MG Company, 33 Division. I can't remember which of his books mentioned it.

 

I'll have a check once the kids are in bed.

 

Colin

 

 

[helpjpl]

 

Medal Rolls show:

PS/5782 Pte Harold Holmes Tyson, 20th Royal Fusiliers, discharged to Commission Northumberland Fusiliers on 22 December 1917 - after the atrocity.

 

I don't see any mention of it in O'Neills The Royal Fusiliers In The Great War - Index for 20th Battalion on page 434:

https://archive.org/stream/royalfusiliersin00onei?textSrch=bourbon&btnSrch=#page/434/mode/2up

 

Have you checked the War Diaries of 2nd Royal Welsh Fusiliers & 5/6th Scottish Rifles (Cameronians) to see if they were at Croisilles?

Edit:  Suggest you wait for Colin W Taylor's reply before trawling through the above WD's.

 

JP

 

Edited 27 March , 2020 by helpjpl
Suggest you wait for Colin W Taylor's reply before trawling through the above WD's.

[Colin W Taylor]

Paul,

 

PSB from the History of the 33rd MG Battalion by Seton Hutchison:

 

 

The error by S-H on the action on '26 May' involving 2 RWF and 5/6th Scottish Rifles is made in Hutchison's work which I believe was re-edited as the 33 Division history. If memory serves the action took place on 27 May and involved 2RWF and 1st Cameronians; 5/6th SR played a supporting role. If memory serves a company of 20th RF were holding the line to the right of this attack and would have witnessed events. 

 

I fear Tyson has used a quote from what he believed to be a reliable source (the divisional history) to fill a gap in his memory. That history, is one of the worst of those written for any division. Hutchison conflates events, tells lurid tales and in some cases may have made things up. Dr Dunn of 2RWF author of 'The War the Infantry Knew' is a far better historian of this fighting; he makes no mention of it and compliments the Germans on their fair play during this action whilst also mentioning that an MG officer (possibly Hutchison) made up some figures on Germans killed by his guns.

 

I'm not trying to cast aspersions on Tyson's account; I've come across his recollections in The Hell they Called High Wood by Terry Cave and I've been keen to read his wider memories.

 

Kind regards

 

Colin

Edited 27 March , 2020 by Colin W Taylor

[Colin W Taylor]

Paul,

 

I'll send you a PM of this chapter from a book I've written on fighting in this sector.

 

The limit of my knowledge of Harold Tyson from my spreadsheet on the UPS Brigade is here:

 

5782

Tyson

Harold Holmes

Pte

20th Bn

15/11/15

Hazelhurst, Worsley, Lancs or Morton Green, nr Manchester

Manchester Grammar School

Possibly Harold Tyson - Hell they Called High Wood - wrote to Graves about High Wood

17/12/17 52nd NF, attached RAF 13/7/18 1st Sch of Aero, 13th TS, 36th TS 7/11/18, Armr Sch Air Ministry 9/11/18, Dispersal 10/1/19

ufctech

y

374/70165

[EDWARD1]

JP you are correct, both 2nd RWF and 5/6th Cameronians  attacked together.  The Cameronians on the left of the RWF attacking the Hindenberg Line between Plum Lane and Oldenberg Lane 27/5/17

Edited 27 March , 2020 by EDWARD1

[Paul Tyson]

Wow, pretty impressive depth of knowledge on this forum, thank you all so much for the replies and the information contained.

 

Colin that's amazing. I'm surprised to find it was a word-for-word copy from a Divisional History but that does completely explain the difference between that and his other letters. Thanks for the PM, I'll read it as soon as I can, also happy to share what little else I know about Harold's war if that's of interest.

[Colin W Taylor]

Paul,

 

I'm slowly working my way through writing a history of the University and Public Schools Brigade including 20th Battalion Royal Fusiliers. Please let me know if I can be of any assistance or if any questions arise either on here or by private message.

 

Kind regards

 

Colin

 

 

[Paul Tyson]

Hi Colin, I will be fascinated to read your history when it is completed. This is a photo of Harold's platoon, presumably taken quite early on. Harold is seventh from left in the third row. I'll add more photos if I can find them, 

 

 

[EDWARD1]

The letter looks to be written in ball point pen and if so  was only commercially available after 1938.

[Colin W Taylor]

Paul,

 

Many thanks for sharing. I may be able to narrow down which platoon he was in but, as you say, soldiers did move between platoons and companies.

 

Likely taken at Tidworth in the Autumn of 1915, possibly shortly before the Brigade departed to France. 

 

I'm interested by the crest on the left; I've not seen this in other photos but I presume it was carried with the UPS Brigade from Epsom via Clipstone.

 

Kind regards

 

Colin  

[Paul Tyson]

Hello Edward 1, 

 

It is in ballpoint pen, all his other letters are in pencil. I had noticed the difference but I did not realise that could be used to date it - good work, thank you. As Colin has established it is not contemporaneous, rather a word for word copy from the Divisional History (or subsequent book) and it is not addressed or signed off as his other letters are, still I had not thought it could have been written as late as 1938. I wonder why ? It was given to me by his brother (my grandfather) along with other letters, photographs and medals so it must have had some meaning to somebody to have survived in the collection. All very mysterious. 

[Paul Tyson]

[Paul Tyson]

20th Royal Fusiliers concert programme, in case it is of interest to Colin or indeed anyone else on the forum, Thank you all once again for your contributions,

Paul 

[Colin W Taylor]

Paul,

 

Many thanks for posting this; I'll have to look at some of the names. I 'd not been able to identify the Battalion Sergeant Major (presumably the RSM) at this point in the war.

 

Brilliant!

 

Colin

 

[Colin W Taylor]

Hi Paul,

 

I think the following are those mentioned in the programme. It may help their ancestors trace them to insert their details below:

 

PS/4536 Ernest Edward Brierley might have started out as a bugler but was later made the drum major for the battalion; he was commissioned in early 1919 into the Manchester Regiment.

 

PS/4602 Pte Frank Cartwright was an insurance clerk and was educated at Hulme Grammar School; he was later gazetted to the Manchester Regiment in mid-1917 but was killed in March 1918 near Savy.

 

PS/5874 Pte Robert Higson Ward was later gazetted to the Durham Light Infantry and survived the war.

 

PS/6009 Pte William Mackley Douglas; later served with 13th RF

 

PS/6021 Edward St John Makin of Sandbach, Cheshire, was a bank clerk.

 

Harold Whalley Holt was from near Rochdale; he was later commissioned in the RFA

 

Walker and Brown, no obvious identities.

 

BSM/RSM John Parker may have been commissioned as the QM for 29th RF later in 1915.

 

 

Regards

 

Colin

[AngelaJ]

Thanks for that info Colin. Ernest Brierley was my grandad.....

[Colin W Taylor]

Hi Angela,

 

I can add the following limited detail:

 

PS/4536 Private/Bugler Ernest Edward Brierley, from Withington, Manchester enlisted at some time before January 1915. He went to France with 20th RF on 14 November 1915. He was possibly promoted to Corporal on about 24 February 1916 followed by sergeant. He was appointed Drum Major in March 1916. He will have led the band for much of the remainder of the war.  When the battalion was disbanded in February 1918 the story went that the band was taken wholesale by 2nd Bn Royal Fusiliers; however, if Ernest went to 13th Royal Fusiliers (as I believe he did) then either the band may have been split up. He was sent home at some point in late 1918 (he was possibly wounded or sick around this time?) for officer training at an Officer Cadet Battalion. 

 

On 4 March 1919 he was gazetted to a commission in the Manchester Regiment. He died in in 1958 at Willingdon, Sussex.

 

I cannot find an officer file for him at Kew which suggests he served as an officer after 1922.

 

There is a family tree on Ancestry which I presume you've created. I hope you don't mind me using it for background information on Ernest for the database I've been compiling.

 

Many thanks

 

Colin

Edited 15 April , 2020 by Colin W Taylor

[AngelaJ]

Hi Colin. Do you have any idea where the battalion went after being on the Somme in 1916? Grandad actually kept a diary for part of 1916 which is how I know a bit about him. My mum never talked about her dad’s service in ww1. That might have been because her dad never talked about it either. He also served in ww2 as a captain/lieutenant. I think he was based in Northwich in Cheshire? I also have photos of him if that would be any use to you. Let me know. All the best. Angela

[clk]

Hi Angela,

 

Do you know if Ernest was born on 27th May 1894 ?

 

 

Regards

Chris

[AngelaJ]

Hi Chris. Yes, my grandad was born in May if 1894, so that will be him. All the best. Angela

[clk]

Hi Angela,

 

I which case it looks like the MoD does hold what's left of his probably heavily weeded service file. If you'd like a copy you should be able to get one for £30 -see here. Under normal circumstances it would take several weeks to arrive, but I don't know what the current situation would be. If needed there is a helpdesk phone number here.

 

Regards

Chris

[Paul Nixon]

Tom Walker, quoted in the programme, could possibly be PS/5902 Cpl Thomas Barlow Walker, discharged to commission 25th September 1917.