Cpl WC Rippon - Leicesters & MGC

[ARippin]

Thank you very much..... very detailed and interesting reading Peter.

I’m glad you warned me about reference to 2/5 meaning Lincs as opposed to Leics.

I’m just searching online now and checking books I already own regarding the Leicesters at the Polygon Wood action.

 

Andrew

 

 

[Bob Davies]

Hi Andrew and all,  as far as I understand the 1/5th Battalion went to France around 26th Feb 1915. The 2/5th were in Ireland until January 1917 when they too embarked for France, via England.  There is also the 3/5th but this is basically a nursery/rest home for the 1/5th battalion. A history of the 1/5th can be found here, it is a great account with lots of snippets of information. I have not found your man in any of my reading so far. Best of luck, Regards, Bob.   https://archive.org/details/leicestershire00hilluoft/mode/2up

[ARippin]

13 hours ago, Bob Davies said:

Hi Andrew and all,  as far as I understand the 1/5th Battalion went to France around 26th Feb 1915. The 2/5th were in Ireland until January 1917 when they too embarked for France, via England.  There is also the 3/5th but this is basically a nursery/rest home for the 1/5th battalion. A history of the 1/5th can be found here, it is a great account with lots of snippets of information. I have not found your man in any of my reading so far. Best of luck, Regards, Bob.   https://archive.org/details/leicestershire00hilluoft/mode/2up

Thanks Bob, just having a read now.

[ARippin]

23 hours ago, kenf48 said:

Thank you Craig

 

The formation of an additional Battalion and the call for a thousand men to act as Reserve for the 5th Battalion (who were at their war station) was first announced in the Melton Mowbray Newspaper dated 17 September 1914 (the same edition listed the German atrocities in Belgium just to ginger things up a bit).  It was reported later recruitment was slow but sure. I doubt they were up to strength until conscription and posting on active service.

 

Ken

Hi Ken

 

I was just wondering where you had seen the Melton Newspaper dated 17 Sept 1914 and the call to arms... was it on FMP?

 

Secondly I hadn’t realised till a good friend pointed it out last night that William would only have been 16 years of age in September/Oct 1914 when his service number indicates he would have joined up.

 

I’m familiar with the fact that there were underage soldiers (and in some cases younger than 16) however I didn’t know whether his age would have had any influence on whether he was put into the 1/5 or 2/5 Leicesters in your opinion.

Unless of course they were unaware of his age or turned a blind eye.

 

Andrew

[ss002d6252]

17 minutes ago, ARippin said:

Hi Ken

 

I was just wondering where you had seen the Melton Newspaper dated 17 Sept 1914 and the call to arms... was it on FMP?

 

Secondly I hadn’t realised till a good friend pointed it out last night that William would only have been 16 years of age in September/Oct 1914 when his service number indicates he would have joined up.

 

I’m familiar with the fact that there were underage soldiers (and in some cases younger than 16) however I didn’t know whether his age would have had any influence on whether he was put into the 1/5 or 2/5 Leicesters in your opinion.

Unless of course they were unaware of his age or turned a blind eye.

 

Andrew

Until the army enforced war time limits on the Territorial Force the minimum age limit was 14 years. Not sure at what point they stopped lower are enlistment.

 

Craig

[ARippin]

1 hour ago, ss002d6252 said:

Until the army enforced war time limits on the Territorial Force the minimum age limit was 14 years. Not sure at what point they stopped lower are enlistment.

 

Craig

Thanks for that Craig,

Where have you seen the minimum age limit of 14 for TF?

It seems to be at odds with the information on the Long, Long Trail about enlisting.

It states a minimum age of 18 for the Regular Army whereas it’s 17 for the TF.

Obviously William could simply have said he was 17! 

 

Andrew

 

[ss002d6252]

41 minutes ago, ARippin said:

Thanks for that Craig,

Where have you seen the minimum age limit of 14 for TF?

It seems to be at odds with the information on the Long, Long Trail about enlisting.

It states a minimum age of 18 for the Regular Army whereas it’s 17 for the TF.

Obviously William could simply have said he was 17! 

 

Andrew

 

17 was the age above which approval was not needed for service in the Territorial Force.

 

Both the regular army and the Territorial Force had allowed boys to join from age 14 with approval - see the Territorial Force Regulations and the equivalent for the regular forces

 

 

Craig

[kenf48]

3 hours ago, ARippin said:

 

I was just wondering where you had seen the Melton Newspaper dated 17 Sept 1914 and the call to arms... was it on FMP?

 

Yes

Melton Mowbray Mercury and Oakham and Uppingham News 17 September 1914  Page 5 if you subscribe

 

The same newspaper shows the 1/5th were at Dunstable and also includes a news article and letter that local volunteers who had been drilling at the Drill Hall should cease and were invited to join the reserve battalion, apparently very few did so.

 

If you don't have subscription:-

 

 

Image courtesy FMP

 

3 hours ago, ARippin said:

I’m familiar with the fact that there were underage soldiers (and in some cases younger than 16) however I didn’t know whether his age would have had any influence on whether he was put into the 1/5 or 2/5 Leicesters in your opinion.

 

As the 1/5th were at their war station concentrating around Luton with the 46th (North Midland) Division all October recruits without previous military experience would have initially been posted to the Reserve Battalion (2/5). 

 

It is likely at sixteen he added a few months to his age, anxious to get some excitement before the popular (not military) belief it would be a short war. 

 

In 'Boy Soldiers' Richard van Emden describes how many younger members of the TF volunteered for overseas service to bring the Battalion up to strength for deployment.  This was in spite of the fact the lower age limit for active service overseas in the Regular Army (and Service)  Battalions was nineteen.  A blind eye was turned to such an extent in in December 1914 an Army Order was issued requiring Territorial Units to adhere to the same regulation regarding age limits.

 

In a further escalation on the 11 February 1915 the Territorial Associations were brought into line with the Regular and Service Battalions and told they could only recruit for overseas service men aged nineteen.  A further order later that month required COs of TF Units to '...ascertain the age of every man in their unit....'  Van Emden points out that for various reasons although the CO was responsible there was little follow up.  In reality it may have been difficult for a sixteen year old to pass for nineteen.  Van Emden also notes these orders were issued before the losses of 1915 and although there was some concern the campaign to bring young boys home had barely begun.

 

A few months probably made little difference in recruitment.  The age on his attestation papers was his 'Army age' so if he had declared he was seventeen he could legitimately join the TF for Home Service.  He may have had greater difficulty joining one of the service battalions who were from the outset recruited for overseas service, we don't know how physically developed he was, or appeared.

 

As we have seen the 2/5 was the Reserve Battalion for the 1/5 and initially the TF Associations had to have 200 men ready as replacements for the first line.  On the balance of probability therefore it seems likely he remained with the 2/5 on home service (which included Ireland) until he was nineteen.  By the time the 59th (2nd North Midland) Division went to France in February 1917 he is likely to have been an 'old soldier' within the Battalion in spite of his age. 

The 2/5 casualty mentioned previously (240862 Robinson) had service that reflected this pattern, i.e. 3 years with the colours, 8 months with field force. 

 

There is always a caveat of caution in drawing firm conclusions about one soldier's service from just one record of another but in my opinion it seems most likely his entire service with the Leicestershire Regiment was with the 2/5.  There is a possibilty he could have gone to France as reinforcement for the 1/5 on reaching nineteen, but after conscription that seems unlikely.  Ideally, as previously mentioned, we need to show a pattern in your casualty list.

 

 

Ken

 

 

[ARippin]

Thanks Craig and Ken

 

Without William’s service papers (which are sadly unlikely to show up) I fully understand that 100% certainty about his unit is unlikely.

 

But from what you have told me in this thread and from what I’ve read elsewhere to date, the 2/5 seems the most likely unit.

 

I’m putting together a summary for his daughter but I will make sure I point out that this is the most likely scenario rather than actual fact.

 

I have also emailed her (she also has an older sister) to see if Ireland was ever mentioned that they are aware of, as we know that’s where the 2/5 Leicesters were in 1916 due to the uprising.

 

I’ll update you of the outcome.

 

As always, thank you for your time and input.

 

Andrew

 

p.s. yes I have access to FMP but thanks for the cutting and I’ve also obtained the war diaries (or rather a good friend has).

[ARippin]

Thought I’d upload an image of William who this thread has all been about (taken in about 1919).

He is wearing a MGC badge on his lapel.

I have another photo of him at his brothers wedding in December 1919 where the badge is more obvious and his clothing and appearance is identical.

Unfortunately and frustratingly, to date I’ve been unable to track down a photo of him in uniform.

 

Andrew

[kenf48]

Fine picture, well worth having a browse through the Melton Mowbray newspaper as there are some gems which don't necessarily come up on a search

 

Ken

[Bob Davies]

Hi Andrew, thanks for sharing the photo, it brings things together to see a face behind the stories and regimental numbers. I looked on the Dochy Farm new British Cemetery, where I have found five Leicestershire men, four are 2/5th, one is 2/4th. 240594 Cpl Sykes. Wilfred. date of death 26/9/17 is 2/5th and 240817 Pte  Coley. A. date of death 26/9/17 is  2/5th. So it would seem to me that your man falls between these two numbers and therefore in my mind must be 2/5th. 202823 Pte Jarvis G. A. date of death 27/9/17 is 2/4th. I have written date of death as that is what is written down on their forms.  If you or anyone finds a map of the attacks in this area /time period, I would love to see them. Regards, Bob.

[ARippin]

Thanks both to Bob and Ken

 

I will certainly scoure FMP for any more local info via Leicester or Grantham newspapers as unfortunately the Melton Times (and other town papers) haven't been digitised yet and made it onto British newspaper archives or FMP.

 

2/5 seems more and more like from what you fine gentlemen have deduced and also for another reason.

 

I had a reply from his daughter this morning.....

 

I can remember asking my dad when I was young if he had a choice where he would like to go on holiday and he said Ireland.  He told me it was a beautiful country.  I think he might have gone to Ireland for training when he joined up.

 

[ARippin]

I have the war diary (or rather a good friend has) of the 2/5 Leicesters which I’m hoping to get soon.

As you pointed out, in 1916 they were dealing with the uprising in Ireland.

I will check in the morning but off the top of your head, would a war diary have been written during their time in Ireland?

 

And yes, I will glady share any maps I can find of the action in Sept 1917.

 

Andrew

Sorry, I meant to say, the war diary I have to collect of the 2/5 is for 1917.

 

Andrew

[kenf48]

41 minutes ago, ARippin said:

I have the war diary (or rather a good friend has) of the 2/5 Leicesters which I’m hoping to get soon.

As you pointed out, in 1916 they were dealing with the uprising in Ireland.

I will check in the morning but off the top of your head, would a war diary have been written during their time in Ireland?

 

 

Ireland was not a theatre of war, therefore they were not required to keep a war diary, as previously noted Ireland was a ‘home’ posting.

 

You can download the war diary from TNA for £3.50

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7355205

 

There are a number of documents on FMP relevant to the Easter Rebellion/Rising, some quite harrowing but not specific to the 2/5 Leicestershire Regiment.

 

Lots of online accounts e.g. https://www.rte.ie/centuryireland/index.php/articles/suppressing-the-rebellion-the-british-forces-in-1916

 

 

Ken 

[ARippin]

9 hours ago, kenf48 said:

 

Ireland was not a theatre of war, therefore they were not required to keep a war diary, as previously noted Ireland was a ‘home’ posting.

 

You can download the war diary from TNA for £3.50

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7355205

 

There are a number of documents on FMP relevant to the Easter Rebellion/Rising, some quite harrowing but not specific to the 2/5 Leicestershire Regiment.

 

Lots of online accounts e.g. https://www.rte.ie/centuryireland/index.php/articles/suppressing-the-rebellion-the-british-forces-in-1916

 

 

Ken 

Thanks Ken

 

I guess ‘Home’ posting makes sense for 1916, I just had my modern head on without thinking.

 

Just about to look at your link regarding ‘suppressing the rebellion’.

 

Best wishes

 

Andrew

[Bob Davies]

On 29/03/2020 at 22:35, ARippin said:

I have the war diary (or rather a good friend has) of the 2/5 Leicesters

Hi Andrew, while looking for another soldier of the 2nd Leicesters I remembered about the "Green Tiger" which is a journal of the Leicestershire Regiment. Here is a link to it, hoping you may find something of interest, if not directly about your man. Regards, Bob. https://royalleicestershireregiment.org.uk/archive/journals

Edited 5 April , 2020 by Bob Davies

[ARippin]

Thanks for that Bob,

My own Grandad William Frederick Nash (after serving in the KRRC and KSLI during WW1 and beyond) joined the Leicesters during WW2.

I managed to find a couple of brief references to him some time back but to be honest, I’d totally forgotten about it.

I will certainly check out your link later and like you say, even if my Great Uncle Bill isn’t mentioned by name, it will still be good background reading.

Kind regards,

Andrew

[ARippin]

Bob

i’ve just taken a quick peek and have already found a reference to the 2/5th in the green tiger magazine.

Brilliant.

Andrew

[Bob Davies]

2 hours ago, ARippin said:

i’ve just taken a quick peek and have already found a reference to the 2/5th in the green tiger magazine.

Hi Andrew, you could have a look at the 2/5th Leicesters and even the 1st Batt, via the Irish route. The 1916 Easter Rising in Ireland is a huge part of their history, so there has been a lot written about it and you may find  information from news papers of the time. The independent being one from memory. You will probably find a lot on line, just a matter of searching. Best of luck, Bob.

[ARippin]

Thanks Bob,

I haven’t come across any maps relating to the attacks at Polygon Wood yet but I won’t forget your request if something does crop up.

Yes I’ve been reading about the uprising in Ireland and various references to the 2/5 Leicesters which helps greatly.

Shame about it being a ‘home’ posting as a war diary would have made interesting reading.

In the link you sent to me regarding the regimental magazine I’ve also read a brief article about them in Ireland setting up roadblocks in the Ballsbridge area of Dublin and capturing some of the IRA ringleaders.
So again, your input has been really helpful.

Just off out with the dog for our daily exercise then I’m going to be looking again at both the Green Tigers and the newspaper archives.

Best wishes,

Andrew

[MaxD]

You may have looked already bu 177 Bde diary WO 95/3022/2 has an account and a map of their part in the 26/28 Sep 1917 action.  At image 135 of 584 on Ancestry:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/60779/43112_3020_2-00000?backurl=&ssrc=&backlabel=Return#?imageId=43112_3022_2-00134

 

Apologies if I have misunderstood what you are after here.

 

Max

[ARippin]

Max... brilliant on lots of levels.

I didn’t even realise Ancestry had Brigade War Diaries on their site!

I’ve been looking at the link to the map you sent in some detail and relating it to the 2/5 Leicesters War Diary for the same period (as well as reading Operation Order no. 50).

Initially I thought it wasn’t related as place names didn’t match between the two but on further study it is.

I just need to print them off to compare as it’s difficult flicking between the two on one screen, so I’m planning on printing them off tomorrow.

Can’t thank you enough for pointing me in the right direction.

Andrew

P.S. Bob, have you checked the map out?