clive_hughes Posted 21 March , 2020 Share Posted 21 March , 2020 Folks, I was recently sent this image, which is of a Captain Hugh Roberts (1877-1956). The rank is his Merchant Navy one, and he came from the Lleyn area of Caernarfonshire before settling later on Anglesey. A local Welsh-language newspaper at some time after the conflict described his WW1 activities as "he was responsible for river boats in Mesopotamia, the area of the Tigris and Euphrates, before being appointed as (?)head of the protection forces (penllywydd y gwarchodlu) in Brussels or Antwerp". The uniform seems to be a fairly standard Army officer's one, with GS buttons and Royal Arms cap badge. The shoulder boards, however, are very curious: to my eye they're of a darker material than the uniform khaki, with odd metal/wire rank insignia, and seemingly letters towards the top end. I and the person who sent me this image would be grateful for any clarification of what the uniform represents. Thanks, Clive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gareth Davies Posted 21 March , 2020 Share Posted 21 March , 2020 What year is the photo? He would have been 41 at the end of the war and he looks older than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmf Posted 21 March , 2020 Share Posted 21 March , 2020 (edited) Hi Clive, He's wearing the uniform of a Lieutenant, Inland Water Transport, R.E., 1916-18 See here: Best regards, Chris Edited 21 March , 2020 by cmf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clive_hughes Posted 21 March , 2020 Author Share Posted 21 March , 2020 Great, that seems to identify him, and thanks to you I've retrieved his MIC card which shows entry to the Mespot theatre in 1917. Gareth, yes I thought he looked a tad older than he ought to be, though I've no idea when the photo was taken. I found some Masters certs. etc. online which looked promising, right area but born one year earlier than stated. Will follow that up tomorrow. Thanks both, Clive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TullochArd Posted 22 March , 2020 Share Posted 22 March , 2020 6 hours ago, clive_hughes said: Great, that seems to identify him, and thanks to you I've retrieved his MIC card which shows entry to the Mespot theatre in 1917. Gareth, yes I thought he looked a tad older than he ought to be, though I've no idea when the photo was taken. I found some Masters certs. etc. online which looked promising, right area but born one year earlier than stated. Will follow that up tomorrow. Thanks both, Clive Regardless of apparent age my initial punt for a photo date was 1917/1919 in that age old tradition of a pre-deployment or a pre-discharge mothballing of the kit photo. His BWM/BVM ribbons are not worn here and cmf's fantastic fix on uniform unit and rank as IWT Lt 1916-18 may support this? Great photo ...… and great insight into IWT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MerchantOldSalt Posted 22 March , 2020 Share Posted 22 March , 2020 Clive The blue epaulettes with gold interlocking wavy lace were authorised for IWT Marine Officers in 1916 by Army Order 347/1916.-121/3/127, this was cancelled in 1918 by another Army order which changed the epaulette removing the gold lace and replacing it with standard officer's "pips" with IWT beneath them, engineers continuing to wear a purple insertion underneath the IWT letters to denote their specialisation. This could date the photo to pre 1918, but I suspect that the gold lace might have appealed to seamen more than the pips so they might well have hung onto their older epaulettes particularly in far flung Mesopotamia. Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clive_hughes Posted 22 March , 2020 Author Share Posted 22 March , 2020 Turns out he was definitely born July 1876. He has a MN card 1919 or just after which includes a photo and corresponding birthdate, so definitely the right man even if he looks a tad older than his years. He was an Ordinary Seaman on long-distance square-riggers from at least 1892, became 1st Mate in 1897, and Ordinary Master 1901. He may also have earned the Merc. Marine War Medal, going by the NA website search, but I've left it to the original enquirer to decide if he wants to follow that up. He received his BWM/Vic pair in 1923. Thanks for your further comments folks. Clive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Posted 22 March , 2020 Share Posted 22 March , 2020 20 hours ago, clive_hughes said: I was recently sent this image, which is of a Captain Hugh Roberts (1877-1956). Where did he live in Anglesey Clive ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MerchantOldSalt Posted 22 March , 2020 Share Posted 22 March , 2020 (edited) What is the number on his CR10 identity certificate that you have found please Clive? Tony Cancel that question, his rating has been wrongly entered as Chief Engineer not Master on the CR10, but the CoC number, 032585 is the same, his Merchant Seaman's Medal Card confirms he was indeed awarded the Mercantile Marine Medal Edited 22 March , 2020 by MerchantOldSalt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryBrook Posted 22 March , 2020 Share Posted 22 March , 2020 (edited) The undermentioned to be temp. 2nd Lts. for duty with Inland Water Trans:- Hugh Roberts 24 Sept. 1917 https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30326/supplement/10373 Edit:- A substitute notice was published on 1 March 1919 stating that Hugh Roberts was gazetted in the rank of temp. Lt., 24 Sept. 1917 https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/31207/supplement/2937 A temp. Lt. H. Roberts relinquished his commission on 9 January 1919. It would appear to be the above as he is not listed under a specific line Bn. https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/31892/supplement/5338 Edited 22 March , 2020 by HarryBrook Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clive_hughes Posted 23 March , 2020 Author Share Posted 23 March , 2020 Dai, He's apparently mentioned in Aled Eames' seafaring book Meistri'r Moroedd as regards his earlier sailing career. Like some other successful mariners he built himself a nice house (Neuadd Wen) in Benllech in the early 1900s. By the 1939 Register he's a retired master mariner there and his wife seems to be running the place as a guesthouse. I gather they're buried in Llanwenllwyfo. MerchantOldSalt, That's kind indeed of you to confirm his MMWM and to correct the CR10 description: I assume therefore he would be "Deck staff" as regards the IWT uniform difference (no purple stripe)? HarryBrook, Again, thanks for the LG look-ups. I have always found checking their site a real pain, and H.Roberts isn't an uncommon name! Much obliged to you. In terms of uniform can we therefore assume that because he has the double-braid rank for Lieutenant on his shoulders, this was effectively applied by him from Sept. 1917 onwards, and it isn't just a post-war picture with the later rank added, as it were? Clive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Posted 23 March , 2020 Share Posted 23 March , 2020 1 hour ago, clive_hughes said: he built himself a nice house (Neuadd Wen) in Benllech Diolch Clive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MerchantOldSalt Posted 23 March , 2020 Share Posted 23 March , 2020 3 hours ago, clive_hughes said: I assume therefore he would be "Deck staff" as regards the IWT uniform difference (no purple stripe)? You assume correctly more usually referred to as "Deck Department" in the Merchant Service 3 hours ago, clive_hughes said: . In terms of uniform can we therefore assume that because he has the double-braid rank for Lieutenant on his shoulders, this was effectively applied by him from Sept. 1917 onwards, and it isn't just a post-war picture with the later rank added, as it were? In my opinion, yes he would have worn the gold lace from his commissioning in Sep 1917, but could have changed it in 1918 to epaulettes with pips, as mentioned above, so unless he donned his uniform after the war for a photo shoot, you can say the photo is between 1917 and 1918, if he changed epaulettes with the Army Order, or 1917 and 1920 if he didn't. As photos of IWT Marine Officers are few and far between, I've only found three, may I add the photo to my collection please? Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clive_hughes Posted 24 March , 2020 Author Share Posted 24 March , 2020 I'm sure the original enquirer wouldn't mind if you did Tony. It would be even nicer if we found one of him in his tropical gear, complete with badges! You never know. Clive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clive_hughes Posted 3 April , 2020 Author Share Posted 3 April , 2020 Not sure why I didn't look this up previously, but I have found Hugh Roberts on the Anglesey Absent Voters List 1918, where he was described as Lieut. IWT RE, War Vessel H.S.W. 13. Any ideas what sort of vessel this would have been? Clive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaJane Posted 3 April , 2020 Share Posted 3 April , 2020 (edited) Inland Water Transport division of the Royal Engineers and I don't know H.S.W yet but will go on looking - see picture to lower right https://archive.org/stream/inlandwatertrans00hall#page/86/mode/2up/search/h.s.w. Later: 1. There was an H.S. class which were originally designed as hospital ships; they were tugs. No sign of W, but this should link to H.S. 13: https://archive.org/stream/inlandwatertrans00hall#page/210/mode/2up/search/H.S. [correction, it doesn't, but go to the last pin on the bottom edge and H.S. 13 will be the picture at the top of the page] 2. There were ships called stern wheelers. Hired Stern Wheelers? https://archive.org/stream/inlandwatertrans00hall#page/n23/mode/2up/search/stern+wheelers Edited 4 April , 2020 by seaJane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Posted 4 April , 2020 Share Posted 4 April , 2020 (edited) 12 hours ago, clive_hughes said: Not sure why I didn't look this up previously, but I have found Hugh Roberts on the Anglesey Absent Voters List 1918, where he was described as Lieut. IWT RE, War Vessel H.S.W. 13. Ha! Thanks for making me look at his entry in my online version Clive, which I see contains a typo. I'll correct that...sometime. Edit: Of a total number of nearly 4200 men on the Anglesey AVL, 38 are in the IWT of the RE. Hugh Roberts is the only man who has his vessel listed, apart from an Ernest Jones of Holyhead, listed as being a sapper on a barge, and a Robert L. Jones of Bodedern listed as being on HS 4.1 (? should be 41). Edited 4 April , 2020 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clive_hughes Posted 4 April , 2020 Author Share Posted 4 April , 2020 Thanks Jane and Dai, Hopefully someone might enlighten us shortly. I imagine this would have been in the Mesopotamian context. Clive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Posted 4 April , 2020 Share Posted 4 April , 2020 (edited) Interestingly, one man appears twice in the AVL, is listed in one parish as 554531 Spr., I.W.T., R.E. and in the next door parish as 554531 Pte., Water Transport, Mesopotamia Edited 4 April , 2020 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MerchantOldSalt Posted 4 April , 2020 Share Posted 4 April , 2020 14 hours ago, clive_hughes said: Not sure why I didn't look this up previously, but I have found Hugh Roberts on the Anglesey Absent Voters List 1918, where he was described as Lieut. IWT RE, War Vessel H.S.W. 13. Any ideas what sort of vessel this would have been? Clive Clive HSW stands for Hospital Stern Wheeler, I can only find a picture of No.12. Generally speaking they were built in Britain, dismantled and re-erected in Basra but some did go out under their own steam. Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clive_hughes Posted 4 April , 2020 Author Share Posted 4 April , 2020 Thank you again MerchantOldSalt, nice picture and explanation. Clive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaJane Posted 5 April , 2020 Share Posted 5 April , 2020 There's quite a lot about them in the book I linked to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clive_hughes Posted 7 April , 2020 Author Share Posted 7 April , 2020 Yes Jane - just found a plate of HS13 in the first listed link, to IWT Mespot volume, page 324, thank you. Clive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaJane Posted 7 April , 2020 Share Posted 7 April , 2020 My pleasure . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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