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Remembered Today:

G98 Butchers Bayonet Unit marks


SJHUK

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Good day to All....

I have acquired a 1915 Erfurt G98 bayonet & it has the following unit marks: P.30.E.B3.192

Can anyone shed any light as to what unit it was issued to please?

Thank you very much!

Kindest regards...

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Well, if it is a 'Butcher Bayonet' then it is a S.98/05, as is seemngly confirmed by the unit marking 'P'., as this indicates it was issued to a Pionier unit specifically . I'd like to see the mark to be sure, but perhaps Pionier 30 ?Ersatz Battalion, 3 Kompagnie, waffe 192. Also, it should technically be a sawback or a sawback removed... Let's have a photograph!   

 

This is a rather late example, as Erfurt basically stopped making these in 1911, with a quick blast effort in the summer of 1915 especially for the newly raised Pionier units, in this case seemingly the training (Ersatz) section of the 3rd Rhenish (Fortress) Pioneer Battalion No. 30, a unit that was re-consituted in 1913.

 

Trajan

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Hi...thanks for your reply1

Yes, it is indeed a S.98/05 I believe the first type with the high muzzle ears?

Anyway pictures attached, thanks once again!oCYwCsGoRW6chCMXmjeX6A.jpg.dc7e6fbfd83d55a728474143f10e0d83.jpgfullsizeoutput_140f.jpeg.57b2c218f34a95ec0abb4dd0fa36672a.jpegfullsizeoutput_1412.jpeg.5d1d89d4f82ea8d027252569c525e9c0.jpegfullsizeoutput_140c.jpeg.5fa051b5b35a7e62823ac41dd2dccf46.jpeg

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Ooooooh, that's a nice looking baby here! Very lovely!

 

Yep, a high-eared but with flashguard type, so a transitional. In its present form made around summer 1915, the flashguard a late summer modification to a Spring 1915 bayonet: if there is a gap between the grips and the flashguard that would almost certainly be the case.

 

I am surprised it is not a sawback though, as these were the regular issue to Pionier units - but perhaps not to the fortress or Ersatz units? 

 

Very, very nice - thanks for showing it!

 

Julian

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Thank you Julian....your info on this is very much appreciated.

I recently acquired an all numbers matching 1916 Spandau G98 rifle & I bought the bayonet to go with it & drool over!.....some pictures attached......1966812273_0Bpy3nwqTaCpZb2JAgCZA.jpg.6a3d208304b6071472c04be820ffa626.jpg972502288_PTLHV3opT9yGVFUAQ226A.jpg.d44e072310cd72eccc4425d34538e1bb.jpg1885647472_RH4fUmgQKCU4OaqdYR70w.jpg.20a577ea78529755da90594beeb4f66e.jpg643056004_pQLZ9Sv4Rq3oSHJr6kBiw.jpg.531a58a4bea8e2edd36771d7ca6be245.jpg1845849623_HoxgxkRESWSOWqDGHZE9A.jpg.70dfa335dd3b92ef09b407443bf8117a.jpg0YeSITyuTyyRJ1jbiZVn0g.jpg.df2b0c52d4fb06b2609b6c756b365f60.jpg

I took it to Bisley a couple of weeks ago & it shoots really well, a string of 10 shots all in the black at 300yds so well pleased!

Thanks again Julian!

Kindest regards,

Stuart

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Certainly looks a sweetie, even though I am not a bang-edy-bang man! In fact I wouldn't mind a go with it! The story behind the attachment system to free the barrel from contact with a mounted bayonet to prevent vibrations affecting accuracy is a fascinating one which I hope to publish next year. Have you tried it with the bayonet mounted? In theory you should not get the same accuracy - I'd love to know the results if you will try this!

 

Best wishes,

 

Julian

 

PS: have you worked out all the markings on the reciever yet? Happy to help if you need it! I gather the butt disc and no other parts are unit-marked, which will be usual post 1914/1915.

Edited by trajan
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As mentioned in other thread, the 1915 was already a 30.Pionier Regiment even not correctly marked, it was Festung Reg. so here is mostly a Ersatz Battalion of it.b.r.Andy

Wiki "02.08.1914: Mit der Mobilmachung stellte das Pionier-Bataillon zwei Feld-Bataillone, zu je 2 Kompanien, und einen Pionier-Belagerungstrain auf. Das Bataillon wurde zum Pionier-Regiment Nr. 30. Es diente zur Belagerung feindlicher Festungen."

http://genwiki.genealogy.net/PB_30

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Hi again!

Well...there has been much research done on the subject of a mounted bayonet affecting the harmonics of a barrel, & in my experience, mostly it does have a detrimental effect on accuracy. 

My understanding of the system on the Mauser G98, which effectively is a male/female keyway, is that it does not affect accuracy, hence the design which as you say separates the two.

I have not fired the rifle (or any G98) with the bayonet mounted to compare, but I'm back down Bisley on the 29th (subject to Coronavirus restrictions of course) & I'm taking the beast with me, so I will try with & without & let you know.

Cheers Julian!

Kindest Regards,

Stuart

Thanks Andy, much appreciated!

Kindest regards,

Stuart

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The original research on bayonet attachment and barrel harmonics was done by various German scientists in connection with the development of the Gew 98 - I have my notes somewhere and can give you references if needed. How is your German? Especially of the academic kind???? This led to the Mauser patent for use with the trials Gew.98's, and then the adaptation they used eventually in the production version. Few SMLE bods would admit it but the nose-boss system it used was a by-product of the Mauser research...:innocent:

 

Andy, thanks for the input there. What do you think though about my idea that these Festung Pionier troops were issued with non-sawback versions? I will try to check with register of unit marks tomorrow.  

 

Julian

 

PS: Stuart, when at Bisley look out for Ogilwy who has a Gew.98 also, and used to be a regular (and well-respected) contributor to GWF, but has gone AWOL these past few years

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Forgot to add. When the Prussian War Ministry tried to find a cheaper and shorter equivalent of the Gew.98, that was not a carbine, they came up with the Gew.98/17, which had a bayonet attachment system using the cleaning rod boss, as in the original trials versions of what became the Gew.98. It really is quite a fascinating subject!

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Hi to you both!

Thanks again for all the info, very interesting! I have an SMLE as well so I know what you mean!!!

I worked in Germany some years back & picked the language up reasonably well but way out of practice now, academic kind is non-existent, but thanks anyway!

Again, my thanks to you both....

Kindest regards,

Stuart

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5adf54b1b0f06_IMG_40411.JPG.bf64dca4b0d77e5e7c8889c1c0b81628.JPG5adf54c540a66_IMG_40421.JPG.a8db4dad21b0a8c3626949e489098323.JPG5adf54d86da03_IMG_40431.JPG.0bd7caf5dec62b30857559505fd4f7bf.JPG5adf54f122bdd_IMG_40441.JPG.0bef294648e14b6a79f84b7d6501376a.JPG5adf556b53f23_IMG_40451.JPG.9d93fd840760afd06092f8fba46eea7b.JPG

Μy contribution on this very rare unit marking. 

Regards, D. 

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We have to observe the fact that both specimens are transitional 98/05 aA plain bayonets with added flashguard. 

Regards

D. 

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Which fits nicely with when the unit was being mobilised!

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In 1915 i assume already a transition pieces were made, so remains of half ring, but already equiped with flashguard as i assume many Pioneers were equiped with Kar98AZ, there is no problem with non sawbacked version, i doubt that more as 50% in Pioneer units had a sawback in normal infantry only 6%. 

About accuracy is allways a problem with attachment of bayonet or not, it depends on lenght of barell, weight of bayonet, point where is added , how it change the weight position of rifle, anyway a shooting in higher distance as 600m is for me problematic and only possible for large targets as collumns vehicles etc, and could be done only by salve shootings by unit formation, wout optics are similar sights not usable above the 800 m range, thats my opinion. 

Interestingly by D. piece is roman numeral which would mean a Ersatz Battalion nr.I.

Edited by AndyBsk
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  • 4 weeks later...

A little odd, all matching but at sometime, someone re- blued only the receiver, but still a nice wartime built rifle. I only have one Gew98, 1899 date, unit marked, think/ hope matching. Metal on mine , very light grey/ silvery. An early tall ear bayonet with gorgeous blade for your rifle is great

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