41st Brigade, 14th (Light) Division, 7th Rifle Brigade - Looking for S/32223 Rmn Walter Brooks.

[LCpl Lee Cope]

Hello,

 

 My name is Lee & I'd like to begin by saying a huge THANK YOU to Andrew Lippiatt for contacting me. Andrew had been holding onto my Great Uncle Walters Victory Medal, in the hope that he'd one day find a NOK and then Forty years later he did.

 

 I'm now the proud owner of the above mentioned medal and it's been sent off for a clean and brand new ribbon. This has renewed my efforts in locating his body. 

 

 On the 16th October 1917 the 7th RB were manning a trench between the Menin Road and the Reutelbeck and as the War Diary states they were under constant shell fire whilst digging a new trench and sadly Walter Brooks was one on the casualties deemed as missing.

 

 Like many soldiers his name was listed upon the Tyn Cot memorial in remembrance, but he was classed as missing. His death was listed as KIA, much later and his widow Nellie was in receipt of a war pension.

 

 I've done a lot of research and I'm in possession of all his documents that have survived, but what I need to find out is what company he belonged too on the 16/10/1917... A, B, C or D.

 

 I've been in constant communication with all the ancestry type websites, the CWGC, the Red Cross and the RB regimental museum, but sadly his company/section is alluding me.

 

The reason I'd like to find this out is because I've been given all the grid references for all the unidentified RB soldiers what were recovered after the way apart from Three, that still remain missing.

 

 Any assistance in this matter would be greatly appreciated.

 

 Regards,

 

 Lee. 

 

Edited 15 March , 2020 by LCpl Lee Cope
More images.

[LCpl Lee Cope]

I've requested a trench map from the 01st Dec 1917... However, I'd like to find out if there are any trench maps for my area of interest that were recorded on the 16th Oct 1917?

 

The closest I can get are the 01st Oct 1917 & 01st Dec 1917. 

[stiletto_33853]

Lee,

Here is a trench map covering the area just before the 14th Div relieved the 5th Division. Routelbeek you will find just by the D of the D of C.L.I., Menin Road at the bottom of the map.

By the way Gubbins is B/2504 no such number as B/25804 in the B Prefix sequence,B/20013 is B/200013 indicated a transfer in Sep 16 to the RB, in this case from 11th Leicestershire Regiment. nice bit of research.

 

Andy

Edited 16 March , 2020 by stiletto_33853

[stiletto_33853]

[stiletto_33853]

Lee,

I do not think the December maps will help you, however these can be found in Appendix F of the Divisional HQ Diary.

 

Andy

[LCpl Lee Cope]

Thank you for your help Stiletto,

 

 The intelligence map is also very much appreciated, as too is the trench map... I can only assume it's dated 10/10/1917.

 

 I've placed my 05/12/1917 trench system and the locations of the unidentified RB soldiers (apart from one that's off the map) over the top of this map.

 

 I can see some similarities, however I also appreciate that there would have been trench improvements made between the 10/10/1917 & the 05/12/1917.

 

 This is currently the closest I've got to the 16/10/1917.

 

 Thank you too for the sickness & evacuation document too... Walter was listed as missing on the 16/10/1917 & doesn't show up in any casualtie lists, so I still think that he was killed within this trench system located in my location of interest.

 

 I think I'll try and find out the exact date of when each of the seventeen bodies were recovered for reburial.

 

 Please feel free to fire any other documents that could help my way. Oh, and btw, do you mind me using these images on my Ancestry page for Walter Brooks?

 

 Regards,

 

 Lee. 

[MBrockway]

Can't add much I'm afraid, but when 9/KRRC took over from 7/RB on 16th/17th, their battalion HQ was a 28.J.15.d.5.3.

 

I think it's a reasonable assumption that 9/KRRC used the same location as 7/RB had.

 

No luck with better trench maps.

 

Mark

[stiletto_33853]

Hi Lee,

Welcome to use anything I place on here, however these were from X Corps appendices.

If you go through the timeline there was no real action by the 14th whilst holding that area, apart from heavy shelling, hence no improvement made during the 14th Divisions tenure,  later in the month and they were withdrawn to the Berthen Area (24th) for training and tasked with taking over from the Canadian Corps in late November holding the Paaschendale sector. In the early part to the middle of November they supplied working parties for the Canadian Corps to work on roads and the light railway.

Yes the trench map was dated 10/10/17 after the attack on the 9th and the closest date wise I think you will come across. The intelligence summary was for the past 24 hours, i.e. 2pm 16th to 2pm on the 17th.

As you can see from the maps from Appendix F of the Divisional Diary the quoted 5/12/17 map is not relevant as they were far more advanced on the 5/12/17 suffering casualties near Paaschendaele on the 4th.

 

Andy

Edited 16 March , 2020 by stiletto_33853

[LCpl Lee Cope]

Hello Stiletto & anybody that can help,

 

 I've created an overlay for the trench map on the 10th Oct 1917 & combined it with the trench system from the 05th Dec 1917.

 

 I'm en-devouring to try and locate a match that would show which trench was built/manned by the 7th Rifle Brigade - Coy's A, B, C & D.

 

 If I can discover the Coy that Walter was in then I could "theoretically" locate his unidentified body.

 

 Please could I gain assistance in finding a key that would help me understand all the hand drawn icons on the 10th Oct 1917 map: Trench, barbwire, Machine Gun post, Pillbox etc.

 

Does anybody even know if a 7th Rifle Brigade Company/section list exists anywhere? I've tried all his surviving papers on ancestry sites, CWGC & the Rifle Brigade War Diary/museum, but no joy.

 

It must exist somewhere... 

 

 Any assistance would be appreciated. 

Edited 16 March , 2020 by LCpl Lee Cope

[WhiteStarLine]

5 hours ago, MBrockway said:

when 9/KRRC took over from 7/RB on 16th/17th, their battalion HQ was a 28.J.15.d.5.

Lee, if you have a list of known locations, we can start to build up a zoomable overlay on a modern map using KML.  As a start, this is Mark's battalion HQ location on a October 1 1917 map:

 

Image credit: National Library of Scotland and tMapper Preview

[LCpl Lee Cope]

Thanks WhiteStarline,

 

 I did initially create this overlay (Post #1) for the 05th Dec 1917 trench map, but the trench map provided by Stiletto (post #3) from the 10th Oct 1917 is the closest trench map I've seen to the 16th Oct 1917; this is when Walter was KIA.

 

 As you will see below, I also used "The Scottish Library" WW1 trench map overlays, which are very handy and cover more recent maps. This came in very useful as part of my research process. However, the earliest trench map I could get at that point was the 01st Oct 1917. 

 

Edited 16 March , 2020 by LCpl Lee Cope

[MBrockway]

Brigade HQ was at TORR TOP ref 28.I.24.d.8.3

[LCpl Lee Cope]

Just out of interest too...

 

 I found this a while back reference Walter being officially accepted as KIA 16th Oct 1917 and It says "Plug Street".

 

 I've looked into Plug Street, but I cannot put my finger on what was there at the time in question. Could Brouse Point Cemetery have still been a regimental aid post in Oct 1917?

 

Because as far as I can tell, the 41st never went to Plug Street. 

 

https://www.ww1battlefields.co.uk/flanders/plugstreet/

 

Edited 16 March , 2020 by LCpl Lee Cope

[MBrockway]

Keep in mind that wounded British POWs would have been passed back down the German medical evacuation chain.

 

If one of these died of wounds while still in the combat area, it's likely the Germans would have buried him close by.

 

With the to-ing and fro-ing of the front line, these burials were often disturbed by artillery barrages.

 

The location of any unidentifiable body is not necessarily the location where his unit had been fighting.

 

Mark

[LCpl Lee Cope]

Thanks MBrockway,

 

 That's something which has occupied my thoughts, I'm really hoping that if Walter did meet his end within a trench, then (time permitting) his muckers may have buried him close by.

 

 It's also played on my mind that Walter may have been tasked with being a guide. It's recorded that on the night in question, some guides lost their way in the dark, but nothing states as to whether these guides ever returned safely... What with the nature of the mud there it's often stated that men just simply vanished without trace.

 

 If I can find something that states Walters task and the manner in which he was to fulfill his task, either as a guide, runner, company rifle man, machine gunner etc. then that could help me decide where he "could" have been located and killed upon the battlefield on the 17th Oct 1917.

 

 One thing I do know is that in post #13 the document states that his death was accepted at "Plugstreet". However, with the distance between Poldehoek & Plugstreet being so great, I can only assume that this was accepted as an administrative process and his body wasn't recovered as a casualty, otherwise he'd have been recorded & identified.

 

 The question of whether his body was recovered by German soldiers and buried is certainly something worth thinking about... Did the German army ever make any records of recovered British bodies? 

 

 That would be an interesting avenue to proceed with. 

Edited 17 March , 2020 by LCpl Lee Cope

[travers61]

I have an example of the germans advising the IRC that they had buried a soldier killed in action with the Grenadier Guards, Gdsmn William Saunders 29892 on 3.5.18.

 

Reported to the IRRC on 8.8.1918, following an "Etape inspection" of 4.6.18. He had been missing since 13.4.18 & when his sister enquired about his fate she received a negative reply in June 1918, but the sad news in September.

 

https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Search/#/3/2/224/0/British and Commonwealth/Military/saunders

[LCpl Lee Cope]

After looking at the map, so very kindly provided in post #03 from the 10th Oct 1917, would I be correct in assuming that once the 41st Brigade, 14th (light) Division, 7th Rifle Brigade completed their relief, the 7th RB would have occupied the sector penciled on the trench map as the 95th Brigade.

 

 Therefore, to their front (in the direction of enemy threat) for the 7th Rifle Brigade HQ (situated at grid J15 A 5 3) I have Four (unidentified) Rifle Brigade Soldiers who would have been KIA in the left sector of the front line. This sector was clearly stated in both the 41st Div & 7th Rifle Brigade War Diaries as their area of responsibility between the 10th & the 16th October 1917.

 

1) X. B. 9

Soldier

Rifle Brigade

28.J.15.b.5.9.

Belgium - HOOGE CRATER CEMETERY

2) XIX. A. 17

Soldier

Rifle Brigade

28.J.16.a.55.10

Belgium - BUTTES NEW BRITISH CEMETERY, POLYGON WOOD

3) XX. D. 10

Soldier

Rifle Brigade

28.J.15.d.60.80

Belgium - BUTTES NEW BRITISH CEMETERY, POLYGON WOOD

4) LXII. H. 2

Soldier

Rifle Brigade

28.J.16.d.10.80

Belgium - TYNE COT CEMETERY

 

Would I be correct in thinking this?

 

 And if so why did so many (unidentified) Rifle Brigade soldiers get KIA in the sector penciled on the trench map as 13th Brigade?

 

Edited 19 March , 2020 by LCpl Lee Cope

[LCpl Lee Cope]

I'll locate the grave concentrations for each of the Seventeen Rifle Brigade soldiers in question and see if I can gain any more information reference the manner in which they were found.

 

1) X. B. 9

Soldier

Rifle Brigade

28.J.15.b.5.9.

Belgium - HOOGE CRATER CEMETERY

 

 

3) XX. D. 10SoldierRifle Brigade28.J.15.d.60.80 Belgium - BUTTES NEW BRITISH CEMETERY, POLYGON WOOD

 

 

 

4) LXII. H. 2SoldierRifle Brigade28.J.16.d.10.80Belgium - TYNE COT CEMETERY

 

Enclosure No.4 IV. K. 14 Soldier Rifle Brigade 28.J.22.a.10.95 Belgium - Bedford House Cemetery

 

Enclosure No.4 IV. A. 2 SoldierRifle Brigade 28.J.21.d.90.70 Belgium - BEDFORD HOUSE CEMETERY

 

 

X. B. 9SoldierRifle Brigade28.J.15.b.5.9.Belgium - HOOGE CRATER CEMETERY

 

 

XXI. G. 9SoldierRifle Brigade28.J.21.a.4.1Belgium - HOOGE CRATER CEMETERY

 

 

Edited 20 March , 2020 by LCpl Lee Cope

[MBrockway]

Battalions of the Rifle Brigade and the KRRC were heavily engaged in action in this general area throughout the war.

[MBrockway]

17 hours ago, LCpl Lee Cope said:

 I have Four (unidentified) Rifle Brigade Soldiers who would have been KIA in the left sector of the front line. This sector was clearly stated in both the 41st Div & 7th Rifle Brigade War Diaries as their area of responsibility between the 10th & the 16th October 1917.

 

 

What evidence do you have that these four riflemen were KiA where they were buried rather than buried near some German front line medical post having DoW as POWs during evacuation back down the German medevac chain?

 

This area is likely to have been on the German medevac routes serving Railway Wood, Hooge Crater and Sanctuary Wood, all of which saw heavy RB & KRRC losses in 1915.  A proportion of those riflemen will have died of wounds while being evacuated by the Germans.

[LCpl Lee Cope]

Thanks for the reply MBrockway,

 

 I totally agree with you, but as far as I can tell, I can only go on the evidence available.

 

 Within the 7th Battalion (October) War Diary it clearly states that many men including Walter were either accounted for, KIA or missing by the end of October 1917.

 

 The Brigade would most certainly have had a head count before deploying to conduct the relief on the 10th Oct 1917 and Walter would have been accounted for, otherwise he'd be stated as missing at an earlier date. Therefore, Walter was there in those grid squares during the 10th & the 17th.

 

 As well we all know, there was a million and one ways to die out there, so I admit that Walter could quite easily have been a POW and died as a result of transportation during capture. Did he die as a result? I've no idea, but missing he remains and I hope to gain a little more information from the concentration papers of the CWGC.  

 

 There was clearly lots of enemy shelling on those nights and from what I've read no infantry action at all. So, if Walter was killed by shell fire during the digging of trenches, then there would have been at least one witness. Again, if he was killed by machine gun fire, there would have been at least one witness. This leads me to believe that he was either captured and nobody was around or killed as a result of being blown to pieces and nobody witnessed it... or maybe something else altogether.

 

 If there were no witnesses to his disappearance, what other options do I have... Could he have been a guide, lost on a patrol or a deserter? 

 

 

Edited 19 March , 2020 by LCpl Lee Cope

[LCpl Lee Cope]

I'm currently trying to find the record of death for S/32223 Walter Brooks, 7th Rifle Brigade in any national newspaper & I cannot find it anywhere... Any help please?

[MBrockway]

Brooks appears as Killed, formerly Missing in the Daily Casualty List issued on 13 May 1918 ...

 

 

Page 11

..

 

Mark

 

 

 

 

[LCpl Lee Cope]

That's great work MBrockway!

 

 Thank you very much! So Walter Brooks is confirmed dead and no longer missing, seven months later! Newspaper edition 13/05/18 as per his 104 - 76.

 

 DAMN! I looked there too, I wonder why my search engine didn't find it? And sadly no reference to his company though! I really hoped that the newspaper would provide more about his place in the 7th RB.

 

 However, this has confirmed to me some more information reference his wife "Nellie Brooks" who I previously didn't believe had anything to do with Newport, Salop.

 

 Thank you for yet another clue Mark! 

Edited 20 March , 2020 by LCpl Lee Cope

[MBrockway]

 

... and earlier, Brooks appears as Missing, previously reported Wounded in the Daily Casualty List issued on 01 Dec 1917 ...

 

 

 

..