2nd Norfolks and 7th Berkshires

[charlie962]

6 minutes ago, George Rayner said:

but I think this is a different soldier.

Looks ok George.

 

They demonstrate the possible movements quite well.

 

These two pages, courtesy FMP , are relevant:

 

Edited 21 March , 2020 by charlie962

[maudson]

Hi All

Many thanks again for the research while I was away. When I looked at the next person on the Ringstead Roll of Honour it was Harvey Edward Walker 2nd Norfolks (205461) who went to the 9th South Lancs in the group we have looked at!!

Is a sensible interpretation of what Charlie and George have unearthed that Thomas Tomlin went via a training/reserve battalion to the 2nd Norfolks and saw service but perhaps after the 31st October Armistice went to India for some rest and recuperation? He then arrived back in Salonica on 19th December 1918 (did it take him three weeks to travel from India?), In early 1919 he was drafted to the 7th Berkshires. It is the earliest service that seems most problematic. Or would he have first gone to India and only entered the war zone in Salonica in December 1918 - which is why there is a doubt about his medal entitlement?

Am I missing the essential point (again)? I have downloaded the 2nd Norfolks War Diary but it has faded badly and is often difficult to decipher. The 7th Berkshires is on The Wardrobe website but a day at a time.  I will now have another look to see what I can find.

David

[PRC]

Charlie,

 

Sorry to be slow on the uptake. Do the two pages of the Casualty Form  - Active Service relate to one individual or two.

 

The first page shows in India from the 7th October 1917, the second lands Bombay 4th December 1917. Realise the first date could have been when he sailed from the UK.

The first page also shows leaving India 25th November 1918, the second embarks Bombay 26th November 1918 and the letter posted by George previously states left India on the 28th November 1918.

 

Cheers,

Peter

[maudson]

Hi Charlie/Peter/George

A lot of the dates do not seem to match up and I guessed like Peter that some include travel time (for length of service?) and others do not. Both pages have the same next of kin address on them so I guess must be for same person. The two questions I am trying to answer are. When did he join the 2nd Norfolks in the field and when (and where) did he transfer to the 7th Berkshires. Lacking the necessary expertise it seems almost as if there was some sort of base in India for the 2nd Norfolks which some men served in for a significant time. Is that nonsense again?

David

[PRC]

David,

 

Am I missing something - only the second of the two documents posted by @charlie962 mentions a next of kin.

 

Personally speaking I think this probably needs to be broken down into bite size chunks that can be worked through rather than trying to reach an overarching solution immediately. I believe I can potentially see a way through the puzzle but the first step for both groups of transferees, (Norfolks >> South Lancs and Norfolks >> Royal Berks) will be that confirmation of arrival date in India. Hopefully if both pages do relate to the same man then other surviving parts of the record will confirm the date he left the UK.

 

Cheers,

Peter

[maudson]

Hi Peter, I think that he first page has a stamp above the summary dates at the bottom and written on the stamp is Home Address 2 Chappel [sic?] Row, High Street, Epping. On the second page, written vertically on the left hand side near the top it has Next of Kin wife, Mrs. A Thake, 2 Chapel Row, Epping. Mind you, as soon as I think I have worked something out, another piece of information confuses it.

David

[maudson]

Just a quick addition. I have looked at Thake's extensive records on Ancestry. His Casualty Form states that he Disembarked Bombay 4th December 1917 and "Joined Depot 2nd Norfolks on 5th December 1917" I have also attached a copy of a summary of his service. I now need to see how all this helps! Apologies have failed to delete my first attempt to upload

David

[PRC]

So focusing first of all on Thake, we have a man in the 3rd Battalion of the Norfolk Regiment, a UK only training and holding unit, who is posted overseas to one of the fighting battalions of the Regiment, the 2nd, a unit then in Mesopotamia but with a depot in India.

 

His journey out to India takes nearly two months and on arrival he joins the Depot.

And then...nothing. No note of joining up with his Battalion "in the field", his period of service is all India, (4.12.17 to 25.11.18) and when he writes to state his case for the Victory Medal no mention of service in Mesopotamia which would have made the award a no brainer.

 

Instead we have his Casualty Form - Active Service certified by the Assistant Adjutant No.2 Reserve Battalion, based at Bangalore and dated 10-11-1918 and then the form is signed off by the Captain Commanding No.2 Reserve Battalion (India) - no mention of the Norfolk Regiment. So he was probably still borne on the books of the 2nd Battalion Norfolk Regiment for pay and discipline but never saw service in the field with them.

 

Reading Thake's letter again it definately reads like he knew he was going to Salonica when he left India on the 26th (or 28th) November 1918.

He disembarks at Salonica on the 19.12.18 and marches into 19 I.B.D.

He then sits around at Salonica for four months before being compulsorarily transferred to the Royal Berkshire Regiment on the 19.4.19

 

Does that sound like a reasonable narrative - if so we can then look at how that framework can be extended to the Ringstead men you are interested in.

 

Cheers,

Peter

Edited 22 March , 2020 by PRC
Typo

[maudson]

Hi Peter

Yes - I do think that fits the facts (even though it means what I have written in the biography has to be scrapped). The 2nd Norfolks  War Diary did not seem to fit with any of the men's records. I did try to look for a 2nd Reserve Battalion in India but without success.it does now make some sense. 

Thanks

David

[PRC]

I suspect Tomlin roughly followed the path of Thake, but not necessarily the same dates.

 

Tomlin goes out to India – possibly in a mixed draft with the 3rd Battalion men, (unusual), possibly in a separate draft going out on the same ship, or possibly earlier or later.

 

Like Thake he kicks his heels in India. I suspect the No.2 Reserve Battalion is an administrative unit only that picked up the men in Depots like the 2nd Norfolks at Belgaum in order to provide a general pool of reserves for Mesopotamia. As it was not on the establishment of the Command for a Theatre of War it would not have been required to keep a War Diary in the same way UK only units weren’t.

 

Tomlin is identified earlier as surplus to requirements and is packed off to Salonica – the grey area is whether he is administratively transferred to the Royal Berkshire Regiment on the 15th September 1918, (as per 219030 J E Jones) and then dispatched to Salonica or whether he was already sat somewhere like 19 I.B.D.

 

If he was in India then probably wouldn’t have made it to Salonica in time to see any fighting. And as @charlie962 points out in post 18, even Jones didn’t actually join up with the 7th Royal Berkshires until the 9th March 1919.

 

BTW – I think Tomlin probably went out earlier to India than Thake but I’ll cover that in my thoughts on Harvey Walker. As part of that can you let me know why you have Harvey serving with the 9th? (Assume it's the Roll of Honour but just wanted to check).

 

Cheers,

Peter

[charlie962]

I'm not ignoring you both but just a bit restricted on internet access due to 'confinement' regulations ! Peter, you are analysing the case better than I could.

charlie

[maudson]

Hi Peter. 

Yes it was from the Ringstead Roll of Honour for Harvey Walker  which unusually has him in India and Salonika Forces and Army of Occupation (RoH incidentally has Tomlin in India and Mesopotamia (not Salonika))

Many thanks for your perseverance.

David

[PRC]

Your original post:-

On 13/03/2020 at 14:32, maudson said:

His name was Thomas Alfred Tomlin, born in 1884 in Raunds in Northamptonshire. He is shown on the Ringstead Roll of Honour as in the Royal Berkshires and now serving in Russia. I have found that he was in the 2nd Norfolks (205464) and then the 7th Battalion of the Royal Berkshires (219036).

 

Now you are saying

(RoH incidentally has Tomlin in India and Mesopotamia (not Salonika))

 

Is there something else that I'm not aware of as on the face of it those two statements seem contradictory at least as far as the later part of his Army Career is concerned.

 

Confused of Norfolk

Edited 23 March , 2020 by PRC
Add second quote

[maudson]

Hi Peter,

I may be missing the point. (not for the first time). The ROH has one column titled Where Served in which it has India and Mesopotamia. The next column has Outcome and has Now serving in Russia. (which I think was Georgia). . I hop[e I have not given wrong information by accident.

 

David

[charlie962]

On 21/03/2020 at 14:56, charlie962 said:

On 21/03/2020 at 14:50, George Rayner said:

but I think this is a different soldier.

Looks ok George.

 

I now realise that the letter posted by George is indeed a different man. Tacked on to the end of 54278 Thake's  second record are several pages for 54279 Kenrick, also of 7th Berks. Thake died 1919, Kenrick survived. I have informed FindmyPast. Sorry if I confused things.

 

The 2 pages that I posted are correctly Thake.

 

Charlie

[maudson]

Hi Charlie and Peter, I have posted on the Ringstead People website a biography of Thomas Tomlin which is full of "possibly" and caveats. It seems that a number of men went through the 2nd Norfolks but may have gone in different directions in the confusions towards the end of the war. You and Peter have a much better grasp on this than i have and I find it difficult to put anything with any certainty.

Thanks again

 

David