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What or where can I look for information on Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders


Nightingale

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So my question is, I want to know more about what my Great Grandfathers regiment did in WW1 he was in the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders 1st/6th Division. I’m relatively new to this so I would like to find out what they did from day to day, what country's they fought in and if possible, dates and where,  I would love to see photos of the regiment too. So can anyone recommend any reading, no matter what it is I would be extremely interested, I would love to see photos if anyone has any. I’m just looking for anything that could tell me more about the regiment. I would really appreciate anyone taking the time to reply, thanks .

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August 1914 : at Paisley. Part of Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders Brigade in the Highland Division. Moved to Bedford.
15 April 1915 : transferred to 1st Highland Brigade in same Division.
May 1915 : landed in France.
12 May 1915 : formation retitled to 152nd Brigade in 51st (Highland) Division.
12 June 1916 : transferred as Pioneer Battalion to 5th Division.
November 1917 : moved to Italy, but returned to France in April 1918.
5 October 1918 : converted back to infantry and transferred to 153rd Brigade in 51st (Highland) Division.

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Hi Nightingale,

 

20 minutes ago, Nightingale said:

I would like to find out what they did from day to day, what country's they fought in and if possible, dates and where, 

 

In the first instance, his unit war diary would probably be the best place to go. I'm a bit confused though when you said 'Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders 1st/6th Division'. Can you post his name, and service number (if known).

 

Regards

Chris

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Hi johnboy,

 

I think that would probably be the case, but I thought that it would be worth trying to confirm it before pointing her to a war diary.

 

Regards

Chris 

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Probably found a record and misinterpreted it. Should have gone to Long Long trail!

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13 hours ago, Nightingale said:

So my question is, I want to know more about what my Great Grandfathers regiment did in WW1 he was in the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders 1st/6th Division. I’m relatively new to this so I would like to find out what they did from day to day, what country's they fought in and if possible, dates and where,  I would love to see photos of the regiment too. So can anyone recommend any reading, no matter what it is I would be extremely interested, I would love to see photos if anyone has any. I’m just looking for anything that could tell me more about the regiment. I would really appreciate anyone taking the time to reply, thanks .

 

Here are some group pictures of the 1/6th (Renfrewshire) Battalion Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders, Territorial Force (TF).  The photo with the regimental colours (flags) was taken outside the drill hall at Paisley.  TF soldiers were part-time, civilian auxiliaries and not regular soldiers.  As such they had civilian jobs and lives, but twice weekly would meet fairly locally to their homes to 'drill' in small barracks (buildings) known as drill halls.  These drill halls were spread across the geographical area where the battalion recruited (each battalion had a different area).  Most drill halls were the home of just one, or two companies.  Some of the larger drill halls, often the one with the battalion HQ, had more companies. Before the war there were 8 companies in a battalion (lettered A to F) but after 1915, this became 4 by pairing them - usually A to D).  The picture of A Coy was taken at their drill hall at Greenock.  Sometimes these drill halls still stand.  

 

The larger photo of an individual is from the Imperial War Museum in London and shows the basic uniform of an A&SH soldier at that time.  His headwear is the now famous Tam-o-Shanter that was introduced in the late Summer of 1915.  They are much smaller crowned nowadays, having progressively shrunk with each new generation of soldiers.  You can learn more here:

 

1.   http://176.32.230.50/argyllstest.co.uk/museum/argyll-sutherland-highlanders-ww1-2/?doing_wp_cron=1583879706.7061839103698730468750

 

2.  https://www.pinterest.co.uk/paulelliott338/ww1-argyll-and-sutherland-highlanders/

 

1-6th (Renfrew) A&SH.jpg

1-6th (Renfrew) A&SH ii.jpg

A Coy 6th-greenock A&SH.jpg

A&SH.jpg

A&SH ii.jpg

Edited by FROGSMILE
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10 hours ago, clk said:

Hi Nightingale,

 

 

In the first instance, his unit war diary would probably be the best place to go. I'm a bit confused though when you said 'Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders 1st/6th Division'. Can you post his name, and service number (if known).

 

Regards

Chris

Looking at previous posts made by Nightingale, it's Gilbert Stuart/Stewart. The renumbering is consistent with Territorial battalion.  

So 1/6 Battalion of the A&SH. 

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Hi,

 

35 minutes ago, Michelle Young said:

Looking at previous posts made by Nightingale, it's Gilbert Stuart/Stewart. The renumbering is consistent with Territorial battalion.  

So 1/6 Battalion of the A&SH. 

 

Thanks Michelle.

 

Nightingale

 

You can download most of the war diaries for the (1/) 6th Battalion from the National Archives. They are linked here. Unfortunately though, the one for the time that the Battalion spent in Italy (December 1917 - March 1918) link isn't available to download. I see that you live in Scotland, and as copies direct from the National Archives can be expensive, if you would like a copy of that diary, it might be worth using a locally based file copying service such as this one - link. I haven't personally used them, but they seem to pop up on the forum every so often with favourable comments from others who have.

 

Whilst you know when your Great Grandfather enlisted and when he was discharged, I think that the difficulty you have is establishing when he was sent overseas, and when he was wounded.

 

Regards

Chris

 

 

 

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On 10/03/2020 at 21:54, clk said:

Hi Nightingale,

 

 

In the first instance, his unit war diary would probably be the best place to go. I'm a bit confused though when you said 'Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders 1st/6th Division'. Can you post his name, and service number (if known).

 

Regards

Chris

Hi Chris,

 

Sorry my fault no idea how I have managed to put in the 1st!  It should be 1/6th Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders. My Great Granfathers name is GIlbert Stuart on some of the records his surname is spelled as Stewart. 
He enlisted on the 21/12/1915 and was discharged on the 18/09/1918

He has 2 regimental No’s 6008 and 252883

 

Thanks for the advice now have a copy of the war diary’s so will be reading them soon.

 

 

 

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On 10/03/2020 at 22:18, FROGSMILE said:

 

 

Hi Frogsmile,

 

Thank you this is very interesting, really loved seeing the photos, managed to finally down load the diary, so will also read this and see what more I can find out. I know when my Great Grandfather enlisted 21/12/1915, He had only 3 months before that gone to Canada to get work and look for some where to live for his family, but his own father took extremely ill and he was called home, just making it as his father died several days later.  He and his family actually lived in London and this was where his wife and son were when he went out to Canada. But his mother and father and his wife’s mother and father and extended family were all still living in Airdrie, so I think this is how he ended up in the A&SH. Since my own Dad knew nothing of his Grandfathers life never mind his war service. It has been a frustrating journey, we have discovered small bits and pices and it’s been rather like putting a jigsaw together. 

The more I have researched him the more intrigued I have become and I suppose what I wanted to know is what did he do day to day, where was he with the A&SH. I have a keen interest in history, but have not until, now really looked at WW1 in any great detail other than understanding why it started the country’s involved etc. So it’s been absolutely  fascinating being on this forum, as it gives you such a personal insight as to what actually happened, but I want to know more! Thanks again for the interesting info much appreciated.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Quote

Here are some group pictures of the 1/6th (Renfrewshire) Battalion Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders, Territorial Force (TF).  The photo with the regimental colours (flags) was taken outside the drill hall at Paisley.  TF soldiers were part-time, civilian auxiliaries and not regular soldiers.  As such they had civilian jobs and lives, but twice weekly would meet fairly locally to their homes to 'drill' in small barracks (buildings) known as drill halls.  These drill halls were spread across the geographical area where the battalion recruited (each battalion had a different area).  Most drill halls were the home of just one, or two companies.  Some of the larger drill halls, often the one with the battalion HQ, had more companies. Before the war there were 8 companies in a battalion (lettered A to F) but after 1915, this became 4 by pairing them - usually A to D).  The picture of A Coy was taken at their drill hall at Greenock.  Sometimes these drill halls still stand.  

 

The larger photo of an individual is from the Imperial War Museum in London and shows the basic uniform of an A&SH soldier at that time.  His headwear is the now famous Tam-o-Shanter that was introduced in the late Summer of 1915.  They are much smaller crowned nowadays, having progressively shrunk with each new generation of soldiers.  You can learn more here:

 

1.   http://176.32.230.50/argyllstest.co.uk/museum/argyll-sutherland-highlanders-ww1-2/?doing_wp_cron=1583879706.7061839103698730468750

 

2.  https://www.pinterest.co.uk/paulelliott338/ww1-argyll-and-sutherland-highlanders/

 

 

1-6th (Renfrew) A&SH.jpg

1-6th (Renfrew) A&SH ii.jpg

A Coy 6th-greenock A&SH.jpg

A&SH.jpg

A&SH ii.jpg

 

 

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On 10/03/2020 at 21:50, johnboy said:

August 1914 : at Paisley. Part of Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders Brigade in the Highland Division. Moved to Bedford.
15 April 1915 : transferred to 1st Highland Brigade in same Division.
May 1915 : landed in France.
12 May 1915 : formation retitled to 152nd Brigade in 51st (Highland) Division.
12 June 1916 : transferred as Pioneer Battalion to 5th Division.
November 1917 : moved to Italy, but returned to France in April 1918.
5 October 1918 : converted back to infantry and transferred to 153rd Brigade in 51st (Highland) Division.

Hi Johnboy,

 

 Thanks for this info, I appreciate you taking the time to provide me with this info, but I know this much already, have finally downloaded and printed off the entire war diary, so will make a start on that soon, it was really more day to day stuff, I wanted to know, where and when. I have actually visited the regimental museum on many occasions with my scouts over the years but had no idea my Great Grandfather had served with the A&SH. The museum is currently closed for refurbishment, but I will be asking lots of questions the next time I visit, as the ex servicemen who work there have always been amazingly informative and helpful. 

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I note that you have mentioned several times wanting to know what your ggf did day-to-day in the A&SH.  It’s been a long time since I’ve read it, but one of the best books that I can recall going into that kind of detail is titled “The First Hundred Thousand”, by Ian Hay (who was in the A&SH).  You can undoubtedly buy it as a used book very cheaply and it might even be available online.  It very accurately conveys the military experience of the men joining in 1915.
As well as that, which I can strongly recommend, I urge you to read the excellent “Long Long Trail” adjunct to this website, where the sections on soldiers and units provide a wealth of information.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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On 10/03/2020 at 22:18, FROGSMILE said:

 

The larger photo of an individual is from the Imperial War Museum in London and shows the basic uniform of an A&SH soldier at that time.  

 

 

 

 

A&SH.jpg

 

 

Taken in Cologne in 1919, I believe (merely added for interest)

 

As the battalion was Pioneer Battalion to the 5th Division, you might be interested to know that the divisional history is available as a reprint HERE

 

 

 

 

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Yes I realised it’s later on.  The side view gives a good idea of how the OP’s ggf would have been accoutred though.  I’m more keen that he/she reads Ian Hay’s book, which is extremely evocative of what the ggf would have experienced.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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4 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

I note that you have mentioned several times wanting to know what your ggf did day-to-day in the A&SH.  It’s been a long time since I’ve read it, but one of the best books that I can recall going into that kind of detail is titled “The First Hundred Thousand”, by Ian Hay (who was in the A&SH).  You can undoubtedly buy it as a used book very cheaply and it might even be available online.  It very accurately conveys the military experience of the men joining in 1915.
As well as that, which I can strongly recommend, I urge you to read the excellent “Long Long Trail” adjunct to this website, where the sections on soldiers and units provide a wealth of information.

Hi Frogsmile,

 Thank you for this suggestion, just bought the book from ebay for £4 so looking forward to reading it, as very much wanted something that told me what the solider experienced  and this sound as if it meets my requirements. Thanks for taking the time to post much appreciated. Yes I started to read more of the posts on the long long trail now, as really had no idea of how the army was made up other than knowing about the regiments, so it’s all fascinating reading but new to me, most probably very frustrating to have post like mine for the people who have a very good understanding of WW1, but glad people still take time to give advice.

Thanks

Nigntingale

 

 

 

 

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Just now, Nightingale said:

Hi Frogsmile,

 Thank you for this suggestion, just bought the book from ebay for £4 so looking forward to reading it, as very much wanted something that told me what the solider experienced  and this sound as if it meets my requirements. Thanks for taking the time to post much appreciated. Yes I started to read more of the posts on the long long trail now, as really had no idea of how the army was made up other than knowing about the regiments, so it’s all fascinating reading but new to me, most probably very frustrating to have post like mine for the people who have a very good understanding of WW1, but glad people still take time to give advice.

Thanks

Nigntingale

 

 

 

 


I’m glad to help. You will enjoy the book.

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3 hours ago, Steven Broomfield said:

 

Thanks Steve,

Have just bought the 5th Divisions history and with 20% off, so will read this after I have read The First Hundred Thousand, your suggestion was much appreciated.

Thanks

Nightingale

 

3 hours ago, Steven Broomfield said:

Taken in Cologne in 1919, I believe (merely added for interest)

 

As the battalion was Pioneer Battalion to the 5th Division, you might be interested to know that the divisional history is available as a reprint HERE

 

 

 

 

 

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6 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes I realised it’s later on.  The side view gives a good idea of how the OP’s ggf would have been accoutred though.  I’m more keen that he/she reads Ian Hay’s book, which is extremely evocative of what the ggf would have experienced.

 

No, I wasn't implying anything: just thought Nightingale might be interested to know. Nice picture: there was obviously a 'complete set' of photos of British soldiers taken at the same time.

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Just now, Steven Broomfield said:

 

No, I wasn't implying anything: just thought Nightingale might be interested to know. Nice picture: there was obviously a 'complete set' of photos of British soldiers taken at the same time.

 

Yes, I really like the IWM photos, the resolution is invariably excellent and so a lot of detail can be seen.

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