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captain caveman

1915 Star part engraved

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captain caveman

Hi everyone, I have been given a British War medal and Victory medal and a 1915 star to research the recipient. The recipient was a George William Maughan service number K 29674, Royal Navy. Both BWM and VM are engraved on the edge with the recipients name, however the 1915 star on the reverse has only the number 3-8693 and underneath the letter P engraved onto it. George Maughan enlisted 9th December 1915, his service records do not show a 1915 star. My question is ' has anyone come across part engraved medals'? I have found 6 other recipients with the number 3/8693. any thoughts please.

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charlie962

a clear shot of the back of the star would help; Is the P engraved or stamped ? Is it what is left of previous naming being erased ?

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captain caveman

here we go, It looks stamped to me

all the best

Kyle

1915 Star.JPG

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chaz
Posted (edited)

I would say its 3/8693 and the P is for Pte or Private. usually a capital P and smaller te with line underneath, looks like a horizontal line.

 

possibly a "self award" didnt earn one but thought he should have. Its been known before, only reason for part engraving or even total removal is to make something that dosn't belong there.

 

if a 14/15 star then either

Townsend J H  , Dorset

Coyne J , Northumberland Fusiliers

Allen C , Yorkshire Regt

Edited by chaz

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Old Owl

Quite clearly the majority of the naming on the reverse of this star has been erased--the original recipient of this star would have been a private in the army rather than a Royal Navy man.

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horatio2
24 minutes ago, chaz said:

 

possibly a "self award" didnt earn one but thought he should have. Its been known before

Did the man have his medals been mounted together as a trio?

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RNCVR
Posted (edited)

If George Maughan signed on in Dec 1915 he would not have completed his initial training prior to end of 1915 & thus would not have been entitled to a 1914-15 star, he had to have seen active sea service to qualify for the star in 1915.  His initial training would have been at a shore base at his Depot Port.  With a K number he likely was a Stoker rating.

 

The star is definitely not his, as Old owl has mentioned, Maughen possibly thought he was entitled to the star & added it himself sometime in the 1920's.

The War & Victory medals should both be IMPRESSED with his ON, Rate,Name & R.N.  NOT engraved.

 

The P in the erased star likely is what is left of PTE, an Army rank.

 

Bryan

 

Edited by RNCVR

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chaz
7 minutes ago, horatio2 said:

Did the man have his medals been mounted together as a trio?

just to add, I purchased a trio https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/wessex-auction-rooms/catalogue-id-srwess10202/lot-1c9b6434-44d9-4fd0-89e0-aa3300fa460a

after consulting with the auction house, their expert seemed to think the wear on the back of the star was acceptable and as originally his entitlement and " the picture is part of the description" , have a look at the photo now its out of the pack.

DSC_0566.JPG

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RNCVR

Definitely partially erased!  His MIC should confirm if entitled.

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depaor01
17 minutes ago, chaz said:

just to add, I purchased a trio https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/wessex-auction-rooms/catalogue-id-srwess10202/lot-1c9b6434-44d9-4fd0-89e0-aa3300fa460a

after consulting with the auction house, their expert seemed to think the wear on the back of the star was acceptable and as originally his entitlement and " the picture is part of the description" , have a look at the photo now its out of the pack.

DSC_0566.JPG

Wow. Probably worn pinned to a steel wool tunic :rolleyes:

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Shiny

Is it just me or is there a faint letter A directly below the gap between the 8 and the 6?

 

Michael

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Interested

Yep, I can see that too. (Doesn't mean it is there though - might need new glasses!)

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captain caveman

Cheers everyone, I also happen to think it was self awarded, or I could be doing the guy an injustice as all three medals were separate in a an old box and could be something a family member picked up.

Cheers for your thoughts

regards

Kyle

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TullochArd

Definitely erased. 

 

Shiny says " Is it just me or is there a faint letter A directly below the gap between the 8 and the 6?" ……..it certainly isn't just you Shiny as I can see it too …… maybe even followed by a sliver of an ultra faint "L".  

 

Six contenders as 3/8693 ………. Pte James Coyne Northumberland Fusiliers, Sgt William John Keenan RIR, Pte James H. Townsend Dorsetshire Regt, Pte Charles Drage Northumberland Regiment, Pte Charles Allen Yorkshire Regiment, Pte Frederick Jenkinson Yorkshire Regiment.

 

Charles Drage and Frederick Jenkinson were awarded 14 Star/Clasp not 14/15 Star so that rules them out.

 

I'm having a punt on this medal being originally issued to 3-8693  Pte. C. ALLEN. followed by medallic unit abbreviation for Yorkshire Regiment - the unit with probably the most dynamic and changeable name in the history of the British Army.

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chaz

could be Pte C ALLEN  from the options above. only the 3 options as the others were 1914 star.

I doubt it would be a family member Charles Allen was discharged early , entitled to a trio with SWB

only one way to find out would be an xray which could show up bruising from stamping

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Coldstreamer

there are lots of possibilities as to why and how this happened but they will be pure speculation

 

 

 

 

I see an "A" too 

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lucycutler
On ‎08‎/‎03‎/‎2020 at 19:54, chaz said:

only one way to find out would be an xray which could show up bruising from stamping

Sorry to 'hack into this thread, but I've got one too.  It's a badly errased 1914 star, renamed to 6785 Sapper A Tusting RE.  It'd be nice to know who had it first of all.  As Chaz says, would an X ray possibly reveal the original recipient? And if so, apart from a friendly X ray dept in the local hospital where could one go to for this? 

003.jpg

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chaz

having checked his MIC and roll, he was entitled to a 14 star, the stamping does look period.

dont know how happy the NHS would be xraying it with the waiting lists. I have seen the process being done and may show bulging from previous stamping.

there may be otherways to detect, Its not uncommon for the names to be removed but I would think a "profesional" would leave a smooth back and have removed the file scratches if he was trying to deceive. one question... does the back feel flat or dished? dished may point to renaming, the scratches may be in line with other ones Ive seen that have been glued to backing and the glue scraped to remove instead of a solvent to remove.

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lucycutler

The back of the medal has been quite deeply dished, relatively speaking.  The scratches are far too deep to have been made during removal of adhesive I would have thought.  It looks almost as if it has been gouged out with a large file.  Certainly I can't see any 'professional' doing a thing like that.  I does look as if it has been done quite a long time ago though.  Perhaps Sapper Tusting just lost his medal and then bought a second hand Star and did the job himself. 

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Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

It's very poor quality stamping isn't it?

Letters up and down all over the place.

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PhilB

Not unusual on stars though, Dai?

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chaz

This was my point above, stamping looks period meaning not modern straight lines and even pressure

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Kimberley John Lindsay

Dear All,

Here are examples of:-

1) Erratic stamping (LIENT: probably Calcutta Mint), and

2) Selfie award (he claimed the 15 Star but only got a confirmed British War Medal!).

Kindest regards,

Kim.460088689_15StarLtElliotRGA.jpg.dd5c1fb89ca6b52a894498077e8df7e7.jpg780438436_NamingMajGaskell15Starrev.jpg.71e181cbbe8ad8d5b46b15d0627ff868.jpg

Edited by Kimberley John Lindsay

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TullochArd
5 hours ago, Kimberley John Lindsay said:

Dear All,

Here are examples of:-

1) Erratic stamping (LIENT: probably Calcutta Mint), and

2) Selfie award (he claimed the 15 Star but only got a confirmed British War Medal!).

Kindest regards,

Kim.460088689_15StarLtElliotRGA.jpg.dd5c1fb89ca6b52a894498077e8df7e7.jpg780438436_NamingMajGaskell15Starrev.jpg.71e181cbbe8ad8d5b46b15d0627ff868.jpg

 

Yes certainly only the BWM. What do you think the handwritten entry "MN 27186" under "Clasps to War Medal" column on the March 1925 MIC refers to?   

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Kimberley John Lindsay

Dear TullochArd,

By all means show it to me!
Kindest regards,

Kim.

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