Jump to content
Great War Forum

Remembered Today:

John Milner

Trench Name

Recommended Posts

John Milner

Can anyone identify the trench arrowed between the rail line and the crossroads please, the 12th RB were there on 3 Sept 1916 after Guillemont had been captured.  John2020-03-03_154752.jpg.cc46b8772a752e13ffb2d2a52b66b8ad.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Bob Davies

Not yet, this is the closest I can find with any names so far. Scroll down the link a bit to see the map. Regards, Bob.http://thebignote.com/2019/06/21/the-somme-guillemont-road-cemetery/

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
johnmelling1979

Is that the 12th Riffle Brigade? If so

 

The Battalion relieved the RMF just east of Guillemont, north of the Guillemont-Combles road, on 3rd September. Once in line the Battalion extended its right 100 yards south of that road. The area was a site of stinking decomposition without any recognisable trenches and the night was spent trying to dig a defensive position. Next morning a front line had been dug and wired but the Battalion suffered from heavy shelling. 12th Battalion was ordered to send out patrols, 10 men and a Lewis gun, to help establish a line along Leuze Wood, 500-600 yards in front of the Battalion line. 3 patrols were to be provided under Lt R E V Sanders. Before they moved out the front had changed leaving the Battalion's flank exposed, and the enemy were able to sustain accurate sniping fire on them.

Little movement was possible. At 6.30 pm 2 patrols started out but lost 8 men within 50 yards, the remainder lying in shell holes until after dark, when they moved up in touch with the SLI.

 

John

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
johnmelling1979
Posted (edited)

Map on 9th September 

 

The 19th Bavarian infantry are on the opposing side on this date !

 

Map shows a bit more detail !

 

 

ginchy-map.jpg.f2bd7e55a801000a81445d75c3bf1974.jpg

Edited by johnmelling1979

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
brianmorris547

John

This map is taken fron the WD of the Commander Royal Engineers 20 Div and shows that road as being consolidated by 84 Field Company. The WD of 84 FC records that the Company was in reserve during the attack on Guillemont on 03/09/1916, but owing to the failure of 7 Div on the left of 20 Div to capture Ginchy they moved forward at 7 pm with two companies of the Div Pioneer Bn (11 DLI) all carrying wire and they "wired the whole Divisional front turning back the left flank along the Guillemont Combles Railway". The WD of 11 DLI records that it was B and C Companies in reserve with 84 FC. I am not sure that there was a trench there.

Brian

20div 2.JPG

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Bob Davies

Hi John, this was posted on the GWF by bantamforgot 4th June 2013. It may be of use to you? He may have more maps just a bit more to the west ;-)? Regards, Bob.post-25203-0-71520800-1370366886_thumb.j

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
brianmorris547

This map is taken from 57 C SW corrected to 03/09/1916 which I bought at TNA bookshop. 

There is further reading in the form of a report attached to the September 1916 WD of 20 Div CRE and in the WD of 47 Infantry Brigade of 16 Div, to whom 83 and 84 FCs RE were attached. The WD of 47 IB for 03/09 records, " 47 Bde swept through northern portion of the village and established itself in the Sunken Road 500 yards east of the village". There is an undated plan (Ancestry p 177/524) but it does not name the road. I have always thought of it as the Sunken Road because of this report.

Brian

001.JPG

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
John Milner

Thanks very much chaps, helpful info and maps!  According to the 12th RB WD it appears that there was not much of a trench there to start with, and no name given.

 

Regards

 

John

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Bob Davies

Hi John, Jack Sheldon posted this mop on the GWF 10th Oct 2014. Further to all this the Liverpool pals were in this vicinity around the time of 30th July 1916. They mention a Sunken road too. Interesting for myself as my Great Uncle Evan Jones was there with the 19th Batt Kings Liverpool, possibly where he was gassed? Anyhow I ramble on...here is the map, Regards, Bob.  post-6447-0-38250800-1412940568_thumb.jp

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
johnmelling1979
21 hours ago, johnmelling1979 said:

Is that the 12th Riffle Brigade? If so

 

The Battalion relieved the RMF just east of Guillemont, north of the Guillemont-Combles road, on 3rd September. Once in line the Battalion extended its right 100 yards south of that road. The area was a site of stinking decomposition without any recognisable trenches and the night was spent trying to dig a defensive position. Next morning a front line had been dug and wired but the Battalion suffered from heavy shelling. 12th Battalion was ordered to send out patrols, 10 men and a Lewis gun, to help establish a line along Leuze Wood, 500-600 yards in front of the Battalion line. 3 patrols were to be provided under Lt R E V Sanders. Before they moved out the front had changed leaving the Battalion's flank exposed, and the enemy were able to sustain accurate sniping fire on them.

Little movement was possible. At 6.30 pm 2 patrols started out but lost 8 men within 50 yards, the remainder lying in shell holes until after dark, when they moved up in touch with the SLI.

 

John

 

Exactly what was described In my post to you yesterday..

Left you with more answers to scratch your head with haha

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Bob Davies

Also from Jack Sheldon GWF,  this one 9th Oct 2008;   post-6447-1223535586.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Bob Davies
8 hours ago, brianmorris547 said:

I have always thought of it as the Sunken Road because of this report

Another map to support the 'sunken road' http://www.devonheritage.org/stentiford/Issue_23/Remembering John Stedeford/3Nov1art2.htm

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
brianmorris547

Thanks for that Bob

I think that my RE grandfather was wounded in this Action. I believe that he was serving with 96 FC (20 Div). The crossroads at T 20 c is now the location of the 20 Division Memorial and in the map from the WD of the 20 Div CRE (post 5) there is a number 8 in a circle on the exact location. This and the other circled numbers were strong points to be constructed by 96 FC and the Pioneers who were in support of 59 Infantry Brigade. There are further references to the Sunken Road, there were two, in the WD of 59 IB which also contains a report by Major Story, OC 96 FC (Ancestry p 170/600 - this report does not appear in the RE WDs). Major Story reports that Guillemont was "practically obliterated by the heavy Artillery fire. With the exception of the quarries and the sunken roads it was impossible to trace any roads, landmarks or points".

Brian

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Bob Davies
On 05/03/2020 at 20:15, brianmorris547 said:

Major Story reports that Guillemont was "practically obliterated by the heavy Artillery fire. With the exception of the quarries and the sunken roads it was impossible to trace any roads, landmarks or points".

Hi Brian, it is becoming a bit clearer to me now. The 19th and 20th Kings Liverpool, supported by the 17th, were starting off from white horse trench just to the south of Trones wood and attacking east to west just below Arrow Head Copse to their objective south east of Guillemot. They reach a second sunken road but can go no further due to enfilading fire. The Scots Fusiliers to their left having been wiped out.( only wounded men remaining) So they were no where near the arrow in the original post here of John Milner. I was thrown by the mention of a brickworks from a wounded Lieutenant Willmer 17th KLR. In looking into this it makes one realise how many times these places were attacked by so many different regiments during the course of the war and why so many men never made it home. Regards, Bob.   PS;  a map showing the Kings Liverpool  attack, page 298 of this book on google

History of the King's Regiment (Liverpool) 1914-1919 Volume II

By Everard Wyrall

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
WhiteStarLine
4 hours ago, Bob Davies said:

PS;  a map showing the Kings Liverpool  attack, page 298

Bob's map gives us the exact location of the objective as 57c.T.25.b.2.5 and 57c.T.25.b.4.3 at 8:30 am.  Aligning the left and right start points visually, with a reasonable degree of accuracy, gives us 57c.S.30.c.4.9 and 57c.S.30.c.5.5.

image.png.c00546ac411d79936926ae5d0f4f7d85.png

 

A sunken road is visible near the black centre-circle of the 3rd September 1916 trench map and still clearly visible as a scar on the modern map running across the field just as it did over 100 years ago.

image.png.75a4b65ff791ee3534107eda1b4aca87.png

Image Credits: Google Books, National Library of Scotland and tMapper Preview

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Bob Davies

Thank you WhiteStarLine, it is very interesting to see things on a modern map. As Brian says every thing was"obliterated by the heavy Artillery fire" in this area and looking at pictures from the time there are no villages, just shell holes and rubble. Regards, Bob.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Bob Davies
On 03/03/2020 at 15:57, John Milner said:

Can anyone identify the trench arrowed between the rail line and the crossroads please, the 12th RB were there on 3 Sept 1916 after Guillemont had been captured.  John

Hi John, thank you for starting this post. Looking for a name for the trench has been a very interesting journey over a much fought over area of ground. The latest map I have found gives us more trench names around the area of Ginchy but I think we have to call it the sunken road, (described as a low bank on this map) well for now! ;-) Perhaps a look at various war diaries may give us more? Irish regiments will have captured the area and Guards regiments taken over from them and continued the fight. Map is courtesy of Hurst War Memorial. Regards, Bob. https://www.warmemorial.org.uk/images/pics/Ginchy1916-l.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
John Milner

Hello Bob

 

I agree, I have searched all my maps of the area and the 12th RB and 60th Brigade war diaries, and it does not seemed to have been named.

 

Thanks

 

John

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Don Regiano
On 08/03/2020 at 19:25, John Milner said:

Hello Bob

 

I agree, I have searched all my maps of the area and the 12th RB and 60th Brigade war diaries, and it does not seemed to have been named.

 

Thanks

 

John

 

Here are a couple of photos of the area I took about a week ago.

 

With regard to the later posts re the KLR, the wet winter means that there was plenty of leftovers to find in the field at T.25.a.9.0.  A local (French) friend of ours picked up 18kg of shrapnel balls into 2 hours there last Saturday.

 

Reg

IMG_20200315_133426.jpg

IMG_20200315_133529.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
John Milner

Thanks for the photos Reg!

 

John

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Bob Davies
On 21/03/2020 at 15:11, Don Regiano said:

Here are a couple of photos of the area I took about a week ago.

 

With regard to the later posts re the KLR, the wet winter means that there was plenty of leftovers to find in the field at T.25.a.9.0.  A local (French) friend of ours picked up 18kg of shrapnel balls into 2 hours there last Saturday.

Hi Reg, thank you for posting these pictures, it is really good to see the landscape as it is now. With the greatest respect to the men who fought and died here on both sides over 100 years ago now. You are not forgotten. Regards, Bob.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
brianmorris547

Just noticed a document in the WD of 30 Div HQ General Staff for September 1916 about the sunken road. (Ancestry p 54/728).

Brian 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...