Officer ettiquette

[depaor01]

I'm ploughing through Pat Barker's "Toby's Room". A struggle more because of my finding the time to get a good run at it than it being a bad book.

 

Anyway, in the book - set towards the end of the Great War, it states that Other Ranks were never to address an officer without the presence of an NCO.

Is this true? What's the source for similar etiquette in the WWI British Army?

 

Thanks,

 

Dave

 

[Coldstreamer]

Don't see how this would work (especially during an action if no nco's are there) and not something I've heard of before 

 

 

[depaor01]

The scene where this is mentioned takes place in a home war hospital so not in combat per se.

[FROGSMILE]

I think that this probably relates to verbal requests and written applications.  It is true that the convention in the regular British Army for a long time was that any simple request, or more formal application had to be made first to your NCO.  At its extreme this would be to your section commander, but most commonly it was via your platoon sergeant, who would then address the matter to your platoon commander on your behalf.  This was still the case as late as 1970 in very traditional regiments and it was still the norm when I first enlisted as a boy soldier.  I can also recall very distinctly that when in the barrack room, or during any form of parade as a formed body of men, no matter how small, e.g. a fatigue party, I was not to address an officer without being spoken to first.  Also any response to an officer’s conversation was to be kept short and to the point.  When an officer walked into the room or canteen, regardless of rank we were to stand up.  If no hats/caps were worn we were to ‘brace up’ (that is stiffen body, head up, arms by side, fists clenched).  If sitting and unable to rise we were to “sit-to-attention”.  I recall doing the latter during Matron’s rounds in military hospital.  Again, we did not talk until spoken to.

The routine convention was a very formal relationship between officers and other ranks and I can recall how when I was on duty as company orderly sergeant (a duty carried out by a corporal) I would call my paraded company to attention when even the most junior officer walked past our formed body, salute him, and wait for him to order “carry on”, or “please stand the men at ease”, before I would order stand at ease.  They were very different times.  
 

Another formality that I recall vividly was that when sent as a messenger or runner by an officer to another officer (a regular occurrence at a time when phones of any kind were not in great numbers), I was always to commence my message: “Mr or Captain (officers name) sends his compliments, sir,” and could you please...  This was very much a Regular infantry thing and I did not experience it when working with Territorials, or indeed with service support corps.

In the Grenadier Guards it is still convention when having been addressed by any officer to request “leave to carry on sir, please”?  before, after permission is granted, continuing with whatever activity he is undertaking.

 

I hope that helps....

Edited 7 March , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[ForeignGong]

You brits have always been too strict. When I was in the Aussie army, 1970-74 it was salute first thing in the morning and then not worry about it for the rest of the day. I was still called sir but none of this asking permission to speak or ask to "carry on". 

If my men were close at the end of the day it was the same, just a compliment to say good day.

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, ForeignGong said:

You brits have always been too strict. When I was in the Aussie army, 1970-74 it was salute first thing in the morning and then not worry about it for the rest of the day. I was still called sir but none of this asking permission to speak or ask to "carry on". 

If my men were close at the end of the day it was the same, just a compliment to say good day.

Yes, I experienced that when working with ANZUS for a short time in Singapore and thought nothing of it, it was just your convention and that was fine.  What I have outlined is not the case now.  It is more similar to how you have described it.  
 

NB.  Incidentally, at that time (WW1) I think that the differences between us were between military cultures (i.e. ‘old’ Regular army and new Dominion forces) rather than any National differences.  I worked with some Australian army colleagues on a staff ride (battle study) focusing on the last 100 days (Battle of Amiens, etc.) and one of the significant aspects we discussed was that well over half (from memory) of the ANZAC Corps were British born and spoke with any variety of British accents.  The difference between them and the British Army troops was more to do with the emerging military culture favoured by an institution formed over a very short span of time within the Commonwealth of Australia, when compared with one hundreds of years old.  Probably most significantly this latter included big differences in attitudes to social class.

Edited 1 March , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[rolt968]

With apologies for digressing (possibly not too much).

Didn't a similar situation exist into the 1950s (and indeed much later in one hospital I know) where on his rounds the specialist would request that something be done. The sister would summon a staff nurse and tell her to do it; virtually all communication between specialist and the nurses being via the ward sister.

(See Richard Gordon's Doctor in the House.)

RM

[FROGSMILE]

On 01/03/2020 at 10:34, rolt968 said:

With apologies for digressing (possibly not too much).

Didn't a similar situation exist into the 1950s (and indeed much later in one hospital I know) where on his rounds the specialist would request that something be done. The sister would summon a staff nurse and tell her to do it; virtually all communication between specialist and the nurses being via the ward sister.

(See Richard Gordon's Doctor in the House.)

RM

Yes, I think you’ve made a very good point.  It was the institutional norm.  Very significantly, that in turn was based on the culture of the British Army and dated back to the era of Florence Nightingale, who played a large part in the hospital culture that subsequently evolved.  When compared with today, back then the two cultures, military and hospital, were still very strongly associated.

 

 

Edited 7 March , 2020 by FROGSMILE