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Remembered Today:

42nd East Lancashire - Second Battle of Bapaume


Jaeger6

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I just learned that two grand-granduncles of mine, Ernst and Wilhelm Schröder, both served in the same unit (10./RIR440, 183.ID) and were captured on the same day during the Second Battle of Bapaume. The 183. Infanterie-Division fought in the second part of the battle mainly against the New Zealand Division, but during the first days against the 42nd (East Lancashire) Division. The unit history is quite clear concerning the date my relatives were caught, it must have been the first day of battle, August 21, 1918. The 10. Kompanie lost several men in a smaller engagement but I have no clue which part of the 42nd East Lancashire Division was in action during this time. It might have been the Lancashire Fusiliers during the capture of Hill 140, but I'm not sure. Can anyone help?

 

Markus

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Markus

The War Diary of the 42 Div HQ General Staff records that the attack on 21/08/1918 was carried out by 125 Infantry Brigade and 127 Infantry Brigade. Some German prisoners were identified from 184 IR and 30 RIR. I had a look at the Brigade War Diaries but, at first glance, it did not identify Units of prisoners. I will have a further look at the Battalion War Diaries tomorrow.

Brian

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According to the British official history, 125 Brigade attacked at zero with 1/5th Lancashire Fusiliers in the line. 127 Brigade attacked an hour later with 1/7th and 1/5th Manchester Regiment. Perhaps you can narrow things down a bit by comparing the IR440 Map with the attached.

Charlie

91DB6071-1678-4E3A-A1C6-52383C7C5371.jpeg

6B301196-36F8-475B-B729-E0CE01A132ED.jpeg

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17 hours ago, charlie2 said:

Markus,

The Red Cross files record that Ernest was captured on 23.08.1918 at Miraumont and Wilhelm on the 21.08.1918 also at Miraumont.

https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/2884390/1/2/

https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/503619/1/2/

 

Charlie
 

Charlie,

Thanks for the info. I also found the ICRC files but I couldn't find a valid reference number for a list of captives so I had to guess the date based on the entry in the Erinnerungsblätter. How did you retrieve your information?

 

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10 minutes ago, Jaeger6 said:

Charlie,

Thanks for the info. I also found the ICRC files but I couldn't find a valid reference number for a list of captives so I had to guess the date based on the entry in the Erinnerungsblätter. How did you retrieve your information?

 

The 5 figure numbers - 25651 & 26196 on the righthand side of the cards are the reference numbers. In this case no letter prefix is required, just enter the numbers in the righthand box.

Charlie

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Markus

The WDs of the 1/5 Bn Lancashire Fusiliers and 1/7 Bn Lancashire Fusiliers of 125 Infantry Brigade record prisoners taken on 22/08/1918 after a German counter attack. The WD of 1/8 Bn LFs records that 50 prisoners and 8 machine guns were captured on the attack at Beauregard Dovecot on 23/08/1918.

The WDs of 1/6 Bn Manchester Regt and 1/7 Bn Manchester Regt of 127 Infantry Brigade also record prisoners taken, 1/7 took over 90 on 21/08/1918 and the WD records that on 22/08 the German counter attack was made "presumably by 52 Naval Div". 

Brian

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On 26/02/2020 at 14:06, charlie2 said:

In this case no letter prefix is required

Good to know. I always tried the asterisk as replacement for the missing letter and got no result. Now I know why :-)

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On 26/02/2020 at 21:44, brianmorris547 said:

The WD of 1/8 Bn LFs records that 50 prisoners and 8 machine guns were captured on the attack at Beauregard Dovecot on 23/08/1918.

Thanks, Brian,

This sounds like a good hint, since the R.I.R. 440 fought on the right side of the divisional area. So wehen Wilhelm was captured around Hill 140 on 21 Aug., a retreat of the regiment would make a capture at Beauregard Dovecot two days later very likely.

Markus

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